By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

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HowToKnowGod
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By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by HowToKnowGod » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:04 am

If how we view the world is determined by our mind, then doesn't that mean that Tolle is crazy?

Tolle and other spiritual teachers teach us that the world that we see is determined by our mind. So for example, a complainer always sees things to complain about, no matter what the situation at hand is. "Smile, and the whole world smiles with you."

Yet, Tolle often says, "If you don't think the world is insane, then turn on the television, read a history book."

If Tolle sees the world as insane, doesn't that necessitate that he too is insane?

If he was truly enlightened, then the world would be enlightened to him too and he would have no use in writing books, giving talks, etc.

Glycine
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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by Glycine » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:06 am

I will start with a quote that Heidi has posted previously:
(Rumi) Outside the ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there's a field. I'll meet you there.
If you read other posts you will see that most forum users do not stick to fixed ideas of right or wrong.
Indeed, many people perceive the world as frightening and insane - especially those in war zones.
Eckhart shows us how we perceive the world before becoming aware - this perception will dissolve after experiencing One-ness.
He can't really tell us that the world is as it is supposed to be, when we are currently so consumed by our wishes and regrets.
However, by awakening, we may be able to experience form in a completely new way!

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Onceler
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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by Onceler » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:16 am

If he is insane, and he might be, I want some of that insanity...
Be present, be pleasant.

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Windrider
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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by Windrider » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:35 am

HowToKnowGod wrote:If how we view the world is determined by our mind, then doesn't that mean that Tolle is crazy?

Tolle and other spiritual teachers teach us that the world that we see is determined by our mind. So for example, a complainer always sees things to complain about, no matter what the situation at hand is. "Smile, and the whole world smiles with you."

Yet, Tolle often says, "If you don't think the world is insane, then turn on the television, read a history book."

If Tolle sees the world as insane, doesn't that necessitate that he too is insane?

If he was truly enlightened, then the world would be enlightened to him too and he would have no use in writing books, giving talks, etc.
I think you have misunderstood his teaching haha. The whole point is that Tolle doesnt see the world through his mind, he teaches us how to see it through pure awarness, beyond the mind. Complete tunnel vision through the mind is what has made the world insane. So yes, if you see the world through the mind, your most likely to contribute to that insanity, the whole point of enlightenment is that you dont see it though the mind, but through the pure awarness that makes experience though the mind possible.
All the busy little creatures
Chasing out their destinies
Living in their pools
They soon forget about the sea...

HowToKnowGod
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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by HowToKnowGod » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:41 am

I think I need Tolle to answer this one, as you guys are just blabbing. You don't have the same presence that Tolle does.

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Windrider
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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by Windrider » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:43 am

HowToKnowGod wrote:I think I need Tolle to answer this one, as you guys are just blabbing. You don't have the same presence that Tolle does.
oh but we do, everything does, even you :wink:
All the busy little creatures
Chasing out their destinies
Living in their pools
They soon forget about the sea...

Glycine
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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by Glycine » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:03 pm

I can see your point, HowToKnowGod.
I used to be like this just a few weeks ago.
Fault-finding is our way of resisting change - I used to get pretty annoyed when ET was using scientific terms with a completely different meaning. However, this doesn't stop me from greatly enjoying his books.
Don't forget: ET insists that his words are pointers. Different people will get different pointers, and ET is using many approaches.
The question is: are you willing to be pointed in a certain direction? Do you feel attracted to it?
Ketterling's Law:
Logic is an organized way of going wrong with confidence.

HowToKnowGod
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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by HowToKnowGod » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:24 pm

I'm not fault-finding, I'm just curious. E.T. (nice initials) is great. And I was sort of joking with my comment about presence.

Anyway, it's just that I don't quite understand how he can see insanity in the world if he's beyond it all.

If you were enlightened, then the whole world would be enlightened to you, and so there would be no sense in writing books about raising awareness because all awareness is already raised.

Let's humour my mind a bit.

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tikey
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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by tikey » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:03 pm

if the world would be enlightened, noone would be enlightened.

If the world was all blue, would there be any blue?

LOL

just think about that ;]

cheers
tikey
Im just a cloudless sky :)

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kiki
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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by kiki » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:26 pm

If you've ever had a lucid dream you know how you can relax once you realize you are just dreaming. ET is assuming the role of "you" in the dream state and trying to rouse the characters in the collective dream that they are trapped in a delusionary dream world. Some "wake up" to the fact of this dream state and return to their natural state of awakened awareness. Others don't, and they are the ones who continue to live in unnecessary suffering.

Of course in the broadest sense it is all happening as it should to "no one", but compassion is a strong motivator even if the recipient and giver of that compassion are imaginary. It seems that this is the way things are, the way the play unfolds - it's all happening to dream characters of the one consciousness.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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tikey
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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by tikey » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:54 pm

I would also like to add that he sees sanity UNDER their insanity!
Im just a cloudless sky :)

ubuntu
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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by ubuntu » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:17 pm

He can see the wave while focusing on the sea.
There is only one thing I am certain of, I exist and I exist NOW.

weichen
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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by weichen » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:05 am

Teacher's teaching is like a piece of food. It is the student's responsibility to break it down, to extrac its nutritious part and assimilate it, discard the rest. After reading Tolle's quote (the earth has a lot of ugliness, insanity), the important question is "are you able to assimilate from Tolle's teaching and grow?"

Pointing out that there is another way of living, Tolle's power of now book solved the ugliness and insanity that he talked about. This is completely different from other people who resist reality (call this world insane), but unable to find its root, unable to give a solution.

The word 'Insane' is a strong word, this signifies that PON represent a giant step forward for humanity, not a baby step forward. Having said that, however, the label 'Insanity' by Tolle only refers to a chunk of current human growth potential. So, after this chunk of insanity is cured, there are still a lot of insanity (growth potential) left.

If you say Tolle's insane, then which part of him is insane? Of course his spiritual teaching method has a lot of growth potential. The real question is: can you clearl explain his insanity? Can you clearly give a far better alternative way to be spiritual teacher? If so, then the word 'insane' is justified. The strong word 'insane', again would signify another gaint human step forward.

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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by James » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:41 am

I personally have found that the more awake I am, the more aware I am of the distinction between awakened consciousness and unawake consciousness, in myself and in others, the contrast becomes sharper and more obvious; but it is seen in a matter of fact way not as a judgement. Perhaps it would be helpful for you to substitute the word "unawake" for "insane", since insane might be interpreted as a value judgement.

J.
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: By his own logic, Tolle is insane.

Post by Sighclone » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:29 am

I think Tolle later decided he was excessive in his use of the word insane in PON. Just slightly excessive. Notice that he refrained from using that word in ANE (as memory serves and a quick check just now.) There is an ET Sounds True video clip which was used about a year ago for people to check their browsers in preparation for the Oprah webinars. In that clip he substitutes "out of balance" for insane, and in that moment, he sort of smiles and appears to look at someone in the audience, maybe his editor or Kim??

PON is strident and bombastic compared to ANE - more of a lecture...remember, he wrote them seven years apart...is it possible he got "more enlightened?" Of course not, but it is possible he refined his writing skills, or fine-tuned his "Source antenna."

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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