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Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:19 am
by NoordZee
gdvant wrote:
Yes. The reference is to the quality of observation in which
there is no division between the observer and the observed.
This assumes that there is energy to observe freely. Which
means the environment is seen at once as a totality. For
there to be energy to observe freely in any circumstance,
one must live with that energy/attention as much as is
possible. That is the integrating factor.
Please forgive my ignorance here. Would you be able to rephrase what you have written here, as I do not quite understand this.

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:08 pm
by gdvant
NoordZee wrote:gdvant wrote:
Yes. The reference is to the quality of observation in which
there is no division between the observer and the observed.
This assumes that there is energy to observe freely. Which
means the environment is seen at once as a totality. For
there to be energy to observe freely in any circumstance,
one must live with that energy/attention as much as is
possible. That is the integrating factor.
Please forgive my ignorance here. Would you be able to rephrase what you have written here, as I do not quite understand this.
gv: what is unclear to you?

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:17 pm
by HermitLoon
NoordZee:
My simplistic mind observes Gdvant's statement as a logical, scientific analysis - including, of course "the laws of cause and effect" - of the simple, direct statement "There is Awareness".
It's all great fun! :)

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:00 pm
by gdvant
HermitLoon wrote:My simplistic mind observes Gdvant's statement as a logical, scientific analysis - including, of course "the laws of cause and effect" - of the statement "There is Awareness". :wink:
gv: there is awareness but I hear the questioner saying that knowing
intellectually there is awareness doesn't change the fact of disorder.
Which of course is true. Negative thoughts and feelings continue to
arise in a compulsive way that denies freedom. I take identification
with thought to refer to a loss of conscious contact with what is free
of thought. Basically it means that one doesn't have an immediate
sense of the presence of pure consciousness. So presence is just
an idea and as such is not transformational. The various teachers
propose methods based on their experience but these are not very
helpful since what is second hand is understood only conceptually.

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:45 am
by NoordZee
Hi Gdvant,

First of all, thank you for your efforts trying to explain the concept to me. Unfortunately, I just did not understand the original explanation.
The reference is to the quality of observation in which
there is no division between the observer and the observed.
I don't understand what you mean by that assertion. Especially there being no division between the observer and the observed. I am sorry that I am so slow on the uptake here, but it is a subject with which I am not really familiar.

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:49 am
by NoordZee
Gdvant said:
gv: there is awareness but I hear the questioner saying that knowing
intellectually there is awareness doesn't change the fact of disorder.
Which of course is true. Negative thoughts and feelings continue to
arise in a compulsive way that denies freedom. I take identification
with thought to refer to a loss of conscious contact with what is free
of thought. Basically it means that one doesn't have an immediate
sense of the presence of pure consciousness. So presence is just
an idea and as such is not transformational. The various teachers
propose methods based on their experience but these are not very
helpful since what is second hand is understood only conceptually.
Now, this I think I understand. You are saying that, if you are identified with your thoughts, you are no longer conscious of that fact and hence you cannot sense the presence of pure consciousness.

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:16 am
by gdvant
NoordZee wrote:Hi Gdvant,

First of all, thank you for your efforts trying to explain the concept to me. Unfortunately, I just did not understand the original explanation.
The reference is to the quality of observation in which there is no division between the observer and the observed.
I don't understand what you mean by that assertion. Especially there being no division between the observer and the observed. I am sorry that I am so slow on the uptake here, but it is a subject with which I am not really familiar.
gv: identification with thought is characterized by the sense that
you are inwardly an observer, looking from isolation. So there is
limited space between the observer and the contents observed.
It is as if you are content (accumulating memories thought to
be me) looking at other content such as thoughts, feelings, etc.

This observer or thinker is thought-derived; the conditioned
mind. We need the conditioned mind but the confusion is that
we mistakenly establish identity in it and lose touch with the
spacious unconditioned aspect or formless presence.

With the attention of the unconditioned, perception is unitary.
So there is no division in consciousness between observing
content and observed content. As such observation is from
silence and stillness, the unconditioned, which is empty of
past impressions, remembrances, and attachments.

You wrote earlier that there is "no space around me" to
take that second step. That speaks to the fact that you
take yourself to be the old, the past operating in the
present, when what we really are is the living spacious
presence itself. So through negating what we are not,
our true nature reveals itself.

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:22 am
by NoordZee
Hi Gdvant,

I really appreciate your effort here to explain the concept of observing with the attention of the unobserved. The way you explained it this time has made matters much clearer to me. I hope that you and others do not mind such questions. I shall spend some time on your answer and also intend to browse through this forum more extensively. There is such a wealth of information here.

Thank you again
Frits

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:24 am
by NoordZee
Sorry, I meant observing with the attention of the unconditioned :(

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:29 am
by gdvant
NoordZee wrote:Hi Gdvant,

I really appreciate your effort here to explain the concept of observing with the attention of the unconditioned. The way you explained it this time has made matters much clearer to me. I hope that you and others do not mind such questions. I shall spend some time on your answer and also intend to browse through this forum more extensively. There is such a wealth of information here.

Thank you again
Frits
gv: your welcome. I agree there are many insightful people to talk
with at this site. It is a good place to connect and learn together.

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:45 pm
by karmarider
I recommend the Sedona Method and Byron Katie on my website. I can see how Byron Katie's method may work for many; for me it was too much analysis. The release technique of the Sedona Method is great! I avoided the Sedona method for a long time because of the insistent marketing, and one day I read parts of the book in a bookstore. The release method works very well for anxiety, worries, anger and the like. For me, what has worked has been a combination of Awareness and Release...

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:31 pm
by kiki
The release method works very well for anxiety, worries, anger and the like. For me, what has worked has been a combination of Awareness and Release...
Could you expand on what "releasing" is? How does it differ than recognizing when ego has resurfaced and then it dropping away in that recognition?

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:56 pm
by karmarider
Hi Kiki,

Awareness ('being present', observing, aware of awareness, etc) has been working very well. However, I had experienced a great deal of emotional turmoil, such as anxiety, depression, detachment, apathy and the like, and this led to discovering release techniques, such as the Sedona Method and EFT, and an adaption of Sedona's release technique worked very well for clearing away this past baggage. (Rational Recovery, by Jack Trimpey, worked well for addictions, and it's very consistent with awakening.)

How is releasing different from recognizing the ego? It probably isn't. The crux of release is simply to fully experience the emotion, make space for it and release it. Some may refer to release as heart techniques, similar to what Tolle calls acceptance. True acceptance for most of us is difficult. I found releasing to be easier and soothing, and it leads to acceptance.

Awareness, Release, or Inquiry (Who am I)--all these techniques lead to the choiceless, unbidden, technique-less awaring presence. A combination of awareness and release has resonated--I call it the two-step dance of awakening.

k

Re: Byron Katie & Sedona Method

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:17 pm
by kiki
The crux of release is simply to fully experience the emotion, make space for it and release it.
Thanks for your clarification, karmarider. Many on the board have been advised to do just that. Perhaps there is some difference in terminology.