Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

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highlife66
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Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by highlife66 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:29 am

I posted this at another site and wanted some possible feedback here:


In the last couple of days I have seen two documentaries, "The Power of Forgiveness", which is about people in northern Ireland, families of 9/11 victims, families of the Amish shooting victims, and others, and "Forgiving Mengele", about Auschwitz survivor Eva Mozes Kor and her search for healing from genetic experiments conducted by Nazi doctor Joseph Mengele. In both docs, there were people who have forgiveness in their heart and others who don't.

Does an awakened one need to forgive others for things done to him...

And is forgiveness a concept of the ego? My guess is yes since it implies the forgiver perceives he has been or insulted, etc., in some way. It only happens in his own mind. If everything is perfect and what is, is, which I do believe more and more, then to me it makes no sense to forgive if it is/was supposed to happen, which it it did/had.

I remember Byron Katie saying something to the effect, "There is no need for forgiveness as nobody does anything that needs forgiving (from someone who is awakened)".

To me, that statement is strong enough to put me in meditation/contemplation for hours! (which it has :shock: )


Thoughts anyone?

Warmly,
Jeff
Do not seek after what you yearn for, seek the source of the yearning itself.

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DWBH1953
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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by DWBH1953 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:53 pm

highlife66 wrote: I remember Byron Katie saying something to the effect, "There is no need for forgiveness as nobody does anything that needs forgiving (from someone who is awakened)".

Jeff
Forgive me but to me this sounds like a cop out. With non dulality you can make anything sound OK to do or not do. Seriously because of the way the beliefs are laid out you could kill a person and be OK with it because in truth there is no person there to kill. See how crazy it can get.
There is something very special and valuable that a person receives in their heart when they forgive a person. Just as there is something wonderful you recieve when you operate in total intergity with your self. Forgiving is not easy and when your not at fault it can be very hard but for me the rewards of knowing that you have done the right* thing is well worth it.

Your question brings with it the danger of non duality. Take a look aty your question. Does a awaken one..just stop here for a moment, you really feel just because a person is awake they now have a special license not to do the right thing. Life does not work that way, we are all the same. So forgivness for e reallys comes down to the person if they want to forgive great if not then OK as it should not be forced. However the choice to forgive or not should have nothing to do if your awaken ot not. It needs to be a personal choice coming form your own heart.

* when I use the word right I am not speaking of morals but what you feel deep in your heart IOWs following your heart.
Peace
Randji
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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by aquarius123esoteric » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:29 pm

It is true that love understands all and therefore forgives all. But, the human psyche, the soul, seems to have a deep seated need to forgive and be forgiven. So, why not forgive in any case - in spite of the fact that because one understands that all our experiences merely come to teach us something and that they always serve our highest good and greatest joy, there is nothing to forgive?

With love and light,
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That death precedes re-birth!
A gloomy guest you’ll always be,
Upon this darkling Earth.

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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:08 pm

Great question Jeff. I think it sheds light on the distinction between awakeness and enlightenment.

Being awake (in my view) is to recognize the present moment as reality and to live there/here consciously. It is to further recognize that the personal identity of thought (ego) is imaginary. Enlightenment on the other hand (at least in part), is to realize from within that awakeness, that any apparent harm done to us (or by us) was commited by a sleeping being living a distrorted perception of reality. How could one condemn another (or self) once it is clearly seen that that other is/was stumbling about in a dream state? A quote comes to mind here: "forgive them for they know not what they do".


Forgiveness is related to the release of condemnation and judgment, and that judgment is strictly relative to the egoic perspective. It actually helps to create it. Judgment/condemnation is a powerful isolating energy/factor that holds consciousness in an ego identity. Forgiveness then, becomes a valuable tool for the releasing of that energy as it creates and maintains the sense of a separate me. One may awaken to presence awareness in moments of realization, but the active energy in a body of hidden judgments continously draws us back to the dream of me. Forgiveness then, of self and others, is an indespensible tool for weakening the energy that is creating the "me" identity.

My sense is that forgiveness is applicable in both the ego and awake states. It seems that one can be awake and yet still "have" an ego. The period of forgiveness (and its relatives: acceptance, openess, letting go, etc:) is the transition zone that many of us find ourselves while the ego identification steadily drops away. For most there is a vacilation, or ebb and flow, between being awake and perceiving through ego. In time, the clarity of being awake overcomes the attachment to ego and freedom prevails. Patience is a virtue.

Enlightenment then, is to be totally free of ego (a me-self), not just in a temporarily awakened state where some ego remains latent; but where the identity of a separate me-self is totally dissapated. Here forgiveness is irrelevent because there exists no condemnation. The energy holding an ego identity together, and the consciousness of being separate, has been freed. In its place is the consciousness of unconditional love.

WW

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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by DWBH1953 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:26 pm

Webwanderer wrote: Enlightenment then, is to be totally free of ego (a me-self), not just in a temporarily awakened state where some ego remains latent; but where the identity of a separate me-self is totally dissapated. Here forgiveness is irrelevent because there exists no condemnation. The energy holding an ego identity together, and the consciousness of being separate, has been freed. In its place is the consciousness of unconditional love.

WW
Dear WW,
A question irrelevent for who? Enlighten ones do forgive so for them they must see some relevence is doing so if not then why do they do it or are you saying that one who is enlighten never forgives another?
Thanks
Randji
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Do not think that you are-be!
Do not think about being-you are!
Sri Ramana

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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:09 pm

DWBH1953 wrote: Dear WW,
A question irrelevent for who? Enlighten ones do forgive so for them they must see some relevence is doing so if not then why do they do it or are you saying that one who is enlighten never forgives another?
Thanks
Randji
Forgiveness, it seems, has multiple definitions. The forgiveness I refer to in my post is that that stems from condemnation and judgment. It is that which holds us in a sense of isolated identity. I tried to make my post clear on that but I was apparently unsuccessful.

There is of course Grace and is a catagory of forgiveness unique to itself. The burden of debt one could amass in a lifetime is staggering. The stereo typical "Hitler" comes to mind. It is likely an issue to all of us in one degree or another. This type of forgiveness is topic for another discussion, I was not intent on addressing it in the context of Highlife's topic.

WW

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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by Plorel » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:54 pm

For me true forgiveness starts with the realisiation that every being does the best they possibly can in every situation, ultimately as expression of the one consciousness. With that realisation the concept of forgiveness becomes irrelavant as you come to see there is nothing to forgive.
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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by mistral » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:03 pm

Dear Webwanderer, You words were perfecly written...you said this very very well...and I am in agreement with you...Thank you so much for this excellent response....yes, it was clear the first time and right on....very enlightening.

Thanks for your devotion to this sight and your integrity that is evident, Mistral Merry Angel

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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:29 pm

Thanks Mistrel, your support is appreciated.

WW

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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by Sighclone » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:01 pm

It might be helpful to quote ET on this: from p 229 of PON:
"Forgiveness" is a term that has been in use for two thousand years, but most people have very limited view of what it means. You cannot truly forgive yourself or others as long as you derive your sense of self from the past. Only through accessing the power of the Now, which is your own power, can there be true forgiveness. This renders the past powerless and you realize deeply that nothing you ever did or that was ever done to you could touch even in the slightest the radiant essence of who you are. The whole concept of forgiveness then becomes unnecessary.
Also, from ANE, p. 63:
Somebody becomes an enemy if you personalize the unconsciousness that is the ego. Nonreaction is not weakness but strength. Another word for nonreaction is forgiveness. To forgive is to overlook, or rather to look through. You look through the ego to the sanity that is in every human being as his or her presence.
Namaste, Andy
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There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by thenow » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:04 pm

Take meditation for example. While meditating, if there is something in us that we hold against, there is no way that we can go deeper.

Awakened people still go about living life. In daily life, many things can potentially set us off.

As long as we have this physical body and live in this world, we will still be affected to some extend, at least the body sensation that we feel when in situations.

The difference is that for people who are in the path of awakening, the sensation that gets aroused is much lower than ordinary people. Once aroused, they are able to be mindful of these sensation, emotions, or thoughts, and then take the most appropriate action.

This is the same thing in meditation. If duing the day, everything is peaceful and fine, usually nothing gets aroused in sitting. But if for example, during the day we see a seagull got run over by a car that clearly can see that creature in front of the car, this can stir body sensation in us, that will come up during meditation. This does not come as hatred, usually is just aroused sensation. Then we go on a big weeping and release it.

Forgiveness is a concept of people who see it with ego. For awakened people, compassion is the thing that takes place of many other emotions.

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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by DWBH1953 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:40 pm

thenow wrote: Forgiveness is a concept of people who see it with ego. For awakened people, compassion is the thing that takes place of many other emotions.
Well said and compassion can take the form of forgiveness.
Peace
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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by highlife66 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:59 am

Sighclone wrote:It might be helpful to quote ET on this: from p 229 of PON:
"Forgiveness" is a term that has been in use for two thousand years, but most people have very limited view of what it means. You cannot truly forgive yourself or others as long as you derive your sense of self from the past. Only through accessing the power of the Now, which is your own power, can there be true forgiveness. This renders the past powerless and you realize deeply that nothing you ever did or that was ever done to you could touch even in the slightest the radiant essence of who you are. The whole concept of forgiveness then becomes unnecessary.
Also, from ANE, p. 63:
Somebody becomes an enemy if you personalize the unconsciousness that is the ego. Nonreaction is not weakness but strength. Another word for nonreaction is forgiveness. To forgive is to overlook, or rather to look through. You look through the ego to the sanity that is in every human being as his or her presence.
Namaste, Andy
Thank you very much Andy, I have listened to audio versions of (among other authors) PON and ANE many times and these points didn't strike me until I saw the documentaries. Thank you for understanding the question I was asking.

Warmly,
Jeff
Do not seek after what you yearn for, seek the source of the yearning itself.

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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by Sighclone » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:29 am

You are welcome, Jeff. I've been a little testy lately, and called on it. It's more than a coincidence that your question caused me to review these notes from Eckhart..so thanks for asking!! :)

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Does an awakened one need to forgive others...

Post by highlife66 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:51 am

Webwanderer wrote:Enlightenment then, is to be totally free of ego (a me-self), not just in a temporarily awakened state where some ego remains latent; but where the identity of a separate me-self is totally dissapated. Here forgiveness is irrelevant because there exists no condemnation. The energy holding an ego identity together, and the consciousness of being separate, has been freed. In its place is the consciousness of unconditional love.

WW
Yes Yes Yes!

Forgiveness is irrelevant... :idea: (enters meditative zone... :shock: )

Thank you WW,


Warmly,
Jeff
Do not seek after what you yearn for, seek the source of the yearning itself.

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