Do we each have a unique soul?

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eputkonen
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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by eputkonen » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:16 pm

great2be wrote:This all very well and true for sleep induced dreaming, but the life lived during the day when awake can never be described in the same way - it definitely is not all a dream.
Are you saying it is all a dream Eric?
Yes...life is but a dream (row, row, row, your boat :lol: ).
There really is no difference between "life lived during the day" and "life lived during sleep in dreams". In both, if you kick a rock it hurts...and we implicitly believe the world we are in is real - while in that world.
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Tara
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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by Tara » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:37 pm

I really like your post (ERIC) about our dreams...I get it and am feel I am almost there as far as relating it to the awake state (not sleeping). But can you comment on Fenn's post about 2 people in a room with different tastes in their mouths??

Dreaming is all in our mind/thoughts...like watching or "being" in a movie where we are all the characters????

Life-awake now can seem to be also ran by our mind/thoughts?? If I attach to the thought "I need money" then my body and emotions re-act, but the thought is not real or reality in the now??? Right???

I am just working this out here on the forum...lol. I hope I am making some sense.

So a person is in the room with me, in my thoughts that is no different than when they were in my dreams when I was asleep??? Ok I am feeling a little weird about this but "I" see it as truth.....

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eputkonen
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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by eputkonen » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:38 pm

Fenn wrote:Are you saying that in everyday 'normal' life there are not multiple unique arisings of perceptions?

For instance: there are two people in a room, one has the taste of coffee in her mouth, the other the taste of tea.

Are there not two different, unique, separate sense perceptions going on?
There is the appearance of two people in the room; and based on awareness of the appearance of two people drinking apparently different liquids and assumption, there is the appearance of two different tastes.

Like a mirage...there is the appearance of water, but it is not real as there is no water there.
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Fenn
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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by Fenn » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:47 pm

eputkonen wrote: There is the appearance of two people in the room; and based on awareness of the appearance of two people drinking apparently different liquids and assumption, there is the appearance of two different tastes.
So we could say:

Drinking coffee is the One appearing as drinking coffee. Drinking tea is the One appearing as drinking tea.

They are distinct and different - yet they are the same One.


Fenn

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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by eputkonen » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:53 pm

Tara wrote:Dreaming is all in our mind/thoughts...like watching or "being" in a movie where we are all the characters????
I think that is the right track. Movies are another popular analogy I like to use.
Tara wrote:Life-awake now can seem to be also ran by our mind/thoughts?? If I attach to the thought "I need money" then my body and emotions re-act, but the thought is not real or reality in the now??? Right???
It is not real, but it affects our self-image and perception of the world. Illusions are not real...but in ignorance they can cause suffering - like a mirage that is taken to be an oasis.
Tara wrote:So a person is in the room with me, in my thoughts that is no different than when they were in my dreams when I was asleep??? Ok I am feeling a little weird about this but "I" see it as truth.....
Not only that, but the "me" and "my" you referred to is also a dream no different than when in your dreams when you are asleep.
The dream character you are when you are asleep is not the same person you are when awake.
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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by Fenn » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:55 pm

Tara wrote: So a person is in the room with me, in my thoughts that is no different than when they were in my dreams when I was asleep???
Hi Tara.

Wouldn't this amount to solipsism? The concept that everything is the product of one mind.

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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by eputkonen » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:00 pm

Fenn wrote: So we could say:

Drinking coffee is the One appearing as drinking coffee. Drinking tea is the One appearing as drinking tea.

They are distinct and different - yet they are the same One.
Close...
The One apearing as drinking coffee - the One appearing as coffee being drunk from the One appearing as a cup,
The One appearing as drinking tea - the One appearing as tea being drunk from the One appearing as a cup,
They are distinct and different appearances or illusions (drinkers, cups, coffe, and tea) - but there is only One.
Namaste,

~ Eric Putkonen
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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by eputkonen » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:03 pm

Fenn wrote:Wouldn't this amount to solipsism? The concept that everything is the product of one mind.
I'm hopping on this one as well. It is not solipsism I am talking about. For the solipcist, everything is a product of your mind...you are basically dreaming up everyone else. What I am saying is...even that person/being is a dream. Small, but important distinction. This is Nonduality...which is not quite the same as solipcism.
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~ Eric Putkonen
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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by Fenn » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:15 pm

eputkonen wrote:
Fenn wrote: So we could say:

Drinking coffee is the One appearing as drinking coffee. Drinking tea is the One appearing as drinking tea.

They are distinct and different - yet they are the same One.
Close...
The One apearing as drinking coffee - the One appearing as coffee being drunk from the One appearing as a cup,
The One appearing as drinking tea - the One appearing as tea being drunk from the One appearing as a cup,
They are distinct and different appearances or illusions (drinkers, cups, coffe, and tea) - but there is only One.
Yes, but since the appearance (I wouldn't call it illusion as such) is what 'conventional' life consists of, I think it is fine to use terms like 'unique', 'different' etc.

Wander in his/her original post said: "Even though we are all one are we still unique." This sounds about right. One appearing as many.

Fenn

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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by Tara » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:29 pm

Well I am sure to get an education here:) Learned a new word (solipsism). I def still have a lot to "grasp".

Does it basically amount to if I shut my eyes or am asleep than is there really furniture, trees, other people, sky etc? Life doesn't exist if I don't exist? I mean if I am sitting across from a person I perceive them and can see they are "me" in a sense but if I died they would be dead too-or actually not exist? (in a sense) because "I" could no longer perceive them? So what I see, experience and perceive now is my "life" and I am connected to all because I perceive it? It is actually me? Wow this is so freeing...

So it is not that other people don't exist but how would "I" know if "I" was not here...and being here now, in turn, these other people are my perception, my reality????

Sorry if I am using wrong words to describe what I am trying to figure out...lol

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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by Fenn » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:52 pm

Tara wrote:Well I am sure to get an education here:) Learned a new word (solipsism). I def still have a lot to "grasp".

Does it basically amount to if I shut my eyes or am asleep than is there really furniture, trees, other people, sky etc? Life doesn't exist if I don't exist? I mean if I am sitting across from a person I perceive them and can see they are "me" in a sense but if I died they would be dead too-or actually not exist? (in a sense) because "I" could no longer perceive them? So what I see, experience and perceive now is my "life" and I am connected to all because I perceive it? It is actually me? Wow this is so freeing...

So it is not that other people don't exist but how would "I" know if "I" was not here...and being here now, in turn, these other people are my perception, my reality????

Sorry if I am using wrong words to describe what I am trying to figure out...lol
Solipsism would say that only Tara existed and that anything that appears, appears in Tara's mind and perceptions.

Nondualism says that even this idea of Tara is also an appearance (obviously not for Tara since she is appearance only.)

So that leaves this ungraspable 'open space' in which things appear.

This is Consciousness.


Fenn

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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by Fenn » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:56 pm

aquarius123esoteric wrote:You were saying, dear Friend: 'If two people are in a room, it might be okay to say that there is One thing happening. Yet how do we account for the fact that each person will have a separate and unique version of what is going on?'

Did you know that we all view our earthly existence somewhat differently from everybody else?
Thanks for that Aquarius.

Yes, "earthly existence" consists of much variation and distinction....

Knowing ourselves as One / Being / Consciousness, does not cause the appearance / the world of form to vanish (apart from in some rarified states of samadhi.)

This is my understanding.


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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by Glycine » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:27 pm

What's missing in the above discussion about dreams is repeatability and reproducibility.
The physical laws that are applicable when we are not dreaming are both repeatable and reproducible for most people - this is why science works, and this is why we were able to build so many things around us. Science may not be right, but produces repeatable and reproducible "things". What happens in the overnight dream is hardly repeatable and reproducible - even in the same apparently separated individual.

In my opinion, when we are "awake" during the day, reality and our thoughts are generated by the material forms around us. However, when we dream overnight everything is generated by our thoughts. Thoughts are very real in a dream, but matter is not. Just as an example, if I cut my finger in my dream, the finger will be OK when I wake up and when I dream the next time. However, if I cut it when I'm not dreaming - it's not going to grow back the next day.

The illusion of separation appears to be stronger when we dream overnight. Maybe our dreams are the illusion of the illusion that we are separate!

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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by tod » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:34 pm

Glycine wrote:What's missing in the above discussion about dreams is repeatability and reproducibility.
It could be said that the nighttime dream is drempt by the daytime dreamer, and that the daytime dreamer wakes up into his/her daytime dream.

Nighttime dreams also repeat; there are still forms and presence. The presence of forms indicate a dream; forms being thought-forms.

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Re: Do we each have a unique soul?

Post by tod » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:13 pm

You ask good questions Tara.
Tara wrote:Does it basically amount to if I shut my eyes or am asleep than is there really furniture, trees, other people, sky etc?
As far as I can see (and attempting to put it in words):

Being asleep is (pure) being or awareness, ie consciousness without form or aware being without form. Being in either the daytime or nighttime dream is being conscious of form. Being a form is being in a dream.

So "I shut my eyes" is a dream form (a thought-form) thinking (dreaming) it shuts it's dream eyes and thus shuts out the dream world.

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