WATCHING THOUGHTS...

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Anth_Croz
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WATCHING THOUGHTS...

Post by Anth_Croz » Mon May 08, 2006 2:32 pm

Hi,
I've recently started reading Tolles work, and get confused sometimes when watching thoughts, it helps anxieties, but sometimes i'll get anxious because i think i'm doing it wrong. I think his books are classics.

I'm good at accepting thoughts and noticing that they disappear, but some of his work i don't understand and gets me confused. such as;
Say your planning something good for the future, then how can u be present?

or when he says the ego is never satisfied, that shouldn't stop being ambitious and wanting to fulfill dreams.

i'd say i just get a bit confused as to what is ego and what isn't, and find that sometimes i'm watching and reviewing everythought, does anyone else find they do this? i suppose i'm new to it all so different people have higher levels of conciousness.

Also sometimes how can you accept someone who is pure nasty/evil, it doesn't mean u shouldn't think their nasty, or does he mean u just accept that u think their nasty


Thanks! :D

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kiki
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Post by kiki » Mon May 08, 2006 8:27 pm

All quotes from Anth
Say your planning something good for the future, then how can u be present?
The planning happens now. ET says to let whatever happens right now be the most important thing, and in this case it would be planning. If planning is to be done then do it, and then release all anxiety about whether the plans "work out" or not.
i'd say i just get a bit confused as to what is ego and what isn't,
Ego is just the "sense of self"/the "me idea" that seems to separate us from everything and everyone else. It is only a bundle of ideas that we carry around in our head that convinces us that we are a particular person. Those ideas we have about who we think we are provide us with a particular viewpoint. All of those ideas are without substance - they are only ideas/thoughts which arise in the mind and are IDENTIFIED WITH.

Without ego identification there is no sense of separation from anything. There is no more particularized viewpoint: there is just simple seeing, hearing, tasting and so forth with no labeling or judging going on concerning what's seen, heard, tasted and so on.
Also sometimes how can you accept someone who is pure nasty/evil, it doesn't mean u shouldn't think their nasty, or does he mean u just accept that u think their nasty
When you are resting in/as the natural state of awareness (what you really are) there is the spontaneous unfolding of everything before you with no judging or labeling going on at all. Judging and labeling are functions of the ego and mind only. What one person judges as good another will judge as evil, so who is "right"?

There is only right/wrong as perceived from the viewpoint of particularized egos/minds. To awareness/You there is no judgment or label because their is no viewpoint imposed upon what is happening. In this sense, we can say that there is "acceptance" of what is happening even though there is no one in particular who is doing the accepting. This is where words get in the way. Just as "space" doesn't discriminate and limit whatever displaces that space, awareness/You doesn't discriminate, limit, or judge what unfolds within it. Spaciousness/You is also aware, and it allows for everything.

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mccpcorn
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Re: WATCHING THOUGHTS...

Post by mccpcorn » Mon May 08, 2006 9:00 pm

Anth_Croz wrote:Hi,
I've recently started reading Tolles work, and get confused sometimes when watching thoughts, it helps anxieties, but sometimes i'll get anxious because i think i'm doing it wrong. I think his books are classics.

I'm good at accepting thoughts and noticing that they disappear, but some of his work i don't understand and gets me confused. such as;
Say your planning something good for the future, then how can u be present?

or when he says the ego is never satisfied, that shouldn't stop being ambitious and wanting to fulfill dreams.

i'd say i just get a bit confused as to what is ego and what isn't, and find that sometimes i'm watching and reviewing everythought, does anyone else find they do this? i suppose i'm new to it all so different people have higher levels of conciousness.

Also sometimes how can you accept someone who is pure nasty/evil, it doesn't mean u shouldn't think their nasty, or does he mean u just accept that u think their nasty

Thanks! :D
Try not to label your future planning 'good'. It just IS. It is something planned to be done and should you enjoy it, so much the better.

Ambition isn't the same as ego. Keeping awareness at your centre is what is important and that is best defined when things go wrong, rather than right. Because it is at those times where you may suffer most that being present gives you the most strength and comfort.

There is nothing wrong or 'bad' about striving for life situation success. It shouldn't be identified as such. You're life situation is merely the path you are taking, one that can change. Sometimes you're prepared for the changes, other times less so.

Jesus talked of turning the other cheek. I think what he means by this is acceptance of the behaviour of others. I doubt Jesus would tell someone to accept the prospect of being stabbed to death if by fighting back physically they could prevent it.

But that would not mean resistance to the present moment; as ET has said once you have identified an area of unhappiness or resistance you must either accept it, withdraw from it, or try to change it. So should you feel threatened and you cannot withdraw, then naturally to try and change the outcome before accepting it is the right thing to do.

I hope that clarifies things a little.

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Post by gina » Tue May 09, 2006 7:15 am

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Post by heidi » Tue May 09, 2006 2:17 pm

Hi Anth - and welcome! Kiki, mc and gina have given you some great responses to chew on. :) The only thing I can add is that the answersare about you and how you perceive what's going on. Acceptance isn't accepting the bad behavior of others, it's realizing that you are powerless to change that behavior, and the only thing you can change is the way you operate in the world. The same goes for being present while planning. Rather than filling your head with scenerios and stories of what might be, you simply do your planning as a present action. It's paradoxical, as is just about everything! :)
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mccpcorn
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Post by mccpcorn » Tue May 09, 2006 3:38 pm

I would just like to add for Anth's benefit that for me being the watcher is the weakest aspect of my awareness. My trouble is that it's rare for my mind to collapse so I believe I am confusing observing with listening. I'm not sure I really know just exactly WHAT it is to observe the mind.

I mean I understand it on an intellectual level, but I've had only the tiniest glimpses in reality, little more than eyeblinks really. I know enough to know it's true but I have failed to find a technique - or path perhaps would be a better word - that leads me naturally to an observing state that causes my mind to stop.

ET says most people experience it by accident and don't recognise it for what it is. I would say it still happens by accident rather than design with me, but at least I now know what it is I am experiencing.

That isn't much comfort for me though. But I thought it was important to let you know you're not the only one who struggles with this stuff.

Anth_Croz
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Post by Anth_Croz » Tue May 09, 2006 6:31 pm

Thanks for your prompt replies

So i take it everyone has some degree of confusion when first getting into all this

Personally i am fighting mild OCD and understand that this is the way to pure freedom, but i think too deeply, but i guess most of us on this forum do in a way. I am however, detatching from my thoughts, but sometimes i'll think about thoughts when i'm watching, like, think about if i'm doing it right?

Another point, no-ones perfect we know that but if your present a lot of the time then , how is it possible to argue or have the need to apologise, it seems like a lot of it is to do with perfection.

I guess i'm new to this and sometimes i think when i was very unconcious and not even aware of this whole conciousness area, i had less stress and confusion.

However, i have faith in God and understand that this path is necesserry to get to the right path, and obviosuly the right path is conciousness, i guess patience and presence are key

Does any one else find they had a lot of confusion when they first got into all this.

How much better would u say ur lives are since becoming aware/present/concious

I understand my points are new and aren't as concious as most peoples but i'm willing to learn understand more, as with anything in life.

Thanks again

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Post by mccpcorn » Tue May 09, 2006 7:38 pm

The strange thing with me was I grasped what I was reading in PoN instantly. As I read I immediately knew I was reading common sense. It was a text book case of The Emperor Has No Clothes.

Context? Well the simple fact that all that suffering is plainly there for all to see, as is the reason for it. But nobody notices! It's the ultimate Elephant in the Room so to speak. Once it's pointed out to you, you can't miss it - I see it in the faces of people every day. They look worn, pain is sometimes (though not always) etched into their expression; if not pain then certainly worry, sadness, and stress.

Yes indeed I had no problem grasping the realisation of our insane world; it had been at the back of my mind my whole life I think, just waiting for the key to bring it out into the open.

However realisation is one thing. As with any addiction, the cure is not easy. In fact you could argue it is the hardest of all addictions to cure. It's not like we go to some shoddy motel to find a guy who asks us, "Hey, wanna buy some thoughts?"

They're already all there up in our heads, and very difficult to get away from sometimes. So acceptance is only true first step to cure. And dang it but don't I have issues with it... :roll:

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Post by gina » Tue May 09, 2006 8:21 pm

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Post by mccpcorn » Tue May 09, 2006 10:14 pm

I agree completely, gina.

I too had a very powerful pain body that has kept me very traumatised. I realise I would talk about so many aspects of it as a youth - such as how new bad experiences triggered me to remember old ones. So much was there plain to see if only I had been able to grasp it at the time.

I also shared the experience of nausea when I first looked into myself, but it passed. I would say my own pain body is still half as strong as it was, so it is still very potent. I've been wrestling with it only recently so I still have some way to go.

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Post by Moonlight » Wed May 10, 2006 12:05 am

Anth_Croz yes I too get confused & I started reading ET quite a while ago. I can understand you looking back & seeing how your life might have been a bit easier before you started to gain more awareness. However you'll probably see how unconscious you were then.

I still get lost & confused but I can also clearly see that I am far more conscious than I was well even last month. It's knowing this that keeps me going . There is a change occuring even though my mind can think i'm getting nowhere.

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Post by summer » Wed May 10, 2006 4:48 am

This a great discussion going on here. I loved what mccpcorn said (may I please call you mc? or some easier name to remember :) )
However realisation is one thing. As with any addiction, the cure is not easy. In fact you could argue it is the hardest of all addictions to cure. It's not like we go to some shoddy motel to find a guy who asks us, "Hey, wanna buy some thoughts?"

They're already all there up in our heads, and very difficult to get away from sometimes. So acceptance is only true first step to cure. And dang it but don't I have issues with it...
I love your honesty, and have to agree with you that the compulsiveness of the egoic belief system is the hardest addiction to truly give up.
I guess that is why there have been so few truly enlightened beings in our world.

If all we had to do was read a good book like the "Power of Now" and say "yeh, this sounds groovy" well.......his book was a best seller.... so does that mean that over a million people suddenly realised their essential being beyond the mind and the body?

I have my doubts. It is wonderful for all of us that we have shed some of our attachments. Still, the mind has its own familiar way of fooling us into believing that our story is very, very important.

I keep on reminding myself that patience is a soft lover and healer.

Anth_Croz
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Post by Anth_Croz » Wed May 10, 2006 1:11 pm

Hi again,

One thing i need to ask about watching thoughts, i find that when i think righ lets practice watching thoughts, that its like acceptance and the thoughts disappear so i'm wathcing nothing, is that right? i only watch thoughts when i conciously think, ignore that thought its useless.
How would you describe your process of watching thoughts?

Also i find when reading tolles work that i'm constantly looking for re-assurances, such as he says non-judgmental thoughts are the best, but then he's judging the state of humanity as insane, isn't this a contradiction. Or have i missed the point?

I'm sure most of you find this, but, when you start becoming more aware, do you find that you stop yourself from calling or having a go at someone who you genuinely don't like, it doesn't matter how concious u are, if someone really gets to and is being out-of-order then you shoudl let them know, and if u need to raise your voice do it? but be concious of it, is that ETs point?

Another point, what does tolle think or any of you think about imagination and the power/law of assumption, Neville Goddard's work if you've heard of him, is great too, but takes a different angle on conciousness, more about if you assume someting it will become reality. Howver, tolle seems to ignore imagination, how can you be present if your imagining lets say what your hotel looks like on a pre-booked holiday? Does he reject imagination as not being present, or have i again missed the point?

One last point would you agree that its all in the mind, because if your concious of being concious then its still going on in your brain/mind

Thanks a lot

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Post by mccpcorn » Wed May 10, 2006 3:07 pm

You don't watch nothing as such; that's when awareness comes into play, filling the void that your mind fears.

Oh and summer, thanks for your kind words. Yes you can call me mc. Gina calls me m. which I also don't mind. Most people online actually call me Pops - they said my nick sounded like popcorn and then shortened it. ;)

I suppose you could describe patience as a soft lover. In my case though, she keeps standing me up!! :lol:

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Post by kiki » Wed May 10, 2006 5:20 pm

Don't be under the assumption that anger will not arise once you are awake, because it will. However, it is no longer latched on to so that it consumes you long after the situation has passed, it no longer is identified with - it is just seen as "anger" and then it's gone as though it never was there.

As for imagination, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Imagination is useful in many ways. What tends to happen, however, is that one can become "lost" in their imagination and miss the subtle sense of being.
Anth wrote:One thing i need to ask about watching thoughts, i find that when i think righ lets practice watching thoughts, that its like acceptance and the thoughts disappear so i'm wathcing nothing, is that right? i only watch thoughts when i conciously think, ignore that thought its useless.
Notice the arising of thought; notice how there isn't a "me" that creates thought, notice that thoughts arise spontaneously. There is no "me" that is thinking thoughts - the "me" is just a particularized bundle of thought that is identified with. Once this is seen clearly disindentification with "me" begins to take root. There will be times when all thought is gone, yet "You" are still obviously here, awake and aware. This is the spacious awareness that you really are, this is consciousness, this is the natural state of awareness.

This spacious awareness can be thought of as "acceptance", but there is no longer any mental entity which would accept or reject anything at all. Spacious awareness cannot reject anything, so to the mind it gets interpreted as "acceptance" of everything.

There is no "I" that watches anything at all - the "I" is imaginary. There is just "watching" going on - this "watching" is what awareness "does" (but you can't really even say this, because awareness doesn't really do anything at all). When thoughts are no longer here, awareness becomes aware of itself - there is "wakefulness" without content, there is simply "knowingness".

k

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