Rebelling the Babylon System

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sevenworlds
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Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by sevenworlds » Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:37 pm

Through the Bob Marley thread discussion and a few others I've been involved in recently, both on this forum and others, it's brought up something I feel is important during these times, where the West is now seeing a growing emergence of something that for a long time seemed to belong to the East.

If there is some sort of global awakening happening, these are unique times to be in this world, because there is still quite a gulf between the way that knowledge has been circulating in the East and how it can penetrate Western culture. Coming across this exchange with N. Maharaj is very relevant today:

Q: When I meet a European with some education and talk to him about a Guru and his teachings, his reaction is: ‘the man must be mad to teach such nonsense’. What am I to tell him?

M: Take him to himself. Show him, how little he knows himself, how he takes the most absurd statements about himself for holy truth. He is told that he is the body, was born, will die, has parents, duties, learns to like what others like and fear what others fear. Totally a creature of heredity and society, he lives by memory and acts by habits. Ignorant of himself and his true interests, he pursues false aims and is always frustrated. His life and death are meaningless and painful, and there seems to be no way out. Then tell him, there is a way out within his easy reach, not a conversion to another set of ideas, but a liberation from all ideas and patterns of living. Don’t tell him about Gurus and disciples -- this way of thinking is not for him. His is an inner path, he is moved by an inner urge and guided by an inner light. Invite him to rebel and he will respond. Do not try to impress on him that so-and-so is a realised man and can be accepted as a Guru. As long as he does not trust himself, he cannot trust another. And confidence will come with experience.


Many of those who first awakened in the West naturally had to look to the East to find an expression for it. They then brought that back to the West, set-up workshops, seminars, talks, books, and so on. Still they were only able to reach a small minority who already had some sort of interest in that culture. Naturally, the majority of the West scoffed at it as airy-fairy, hippie stuff. To most who have been brainwashed the Western way, Eastern spirituality makes little sense. Today that is still the prevalent attitude, and even when many young Western folk show an interest in spirituality, it is a superficial demonstration to show they are living an alternative lifestyle. Rarely does it go further than that.

On the other side, you have a growing 'truth movement', which the internet is helping to spread. People like Alex Jones, Jordan Maxwell, Michael Tsarion and David Icke have all put out work that offers an alternative to the version of reality we're given by the mainstream media and education. This is encouraging in some ways but again, I often see the same mentality. It is very attractive to the young and disillusioned looking for an outlet to vent their own inner conflict at authority. My own way in was through that avenue, especially hearing and reading David Icke. Once my world view collapsed and I could see the system for what it is, it set-up a domino effect for the 'person' to also collapse.

I still see most people stuck in either camp. They haven't really moved on. Those dealing with conspiracies can't seem to make the link between what is happening out there and what is happening inside of themselves. Those on the spiritual side are content with the gentler, loving side of things but don't want to face up to some of the more brutal truths of society. Nothing wrong with any of that but nothing wrong with pointing it out either.

We have to realise family, politics, science, education, consumerism, medicine, law and all of these structures cannot continue to exist as we know them. They must crumble. How they crumble and what will be left we can't say and it's not important right now. It is undeniable there must be a rebellion of sorts and that is what I feel Maharaj is pointing to. Those who can't hear the Eastern message need to have their current reality stripped bare and shown for what it is. The language we use to communicate this must evolve and become relevant for the times and culture we live in. To realise our wholeness and completeness we must allow both sides of the picture to emerge. We have to reconcile and understand rebelling in the sense those like Maharaj, Bob Marley and UG communicated is peace and love itself. Nature provides the sun but it also provides thunder and lightning. There is no conflict in nature between those. They each have a season. We need to bring peace into those whose rebelliousness is of the mind (which is the most of the West) by finding an expression which is tough enough to challenge that mind-based rebelliousness.

Whether it happens or not doesn't really matter but I am expressing this here and now.

James
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by James » Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:23 pm

sevenworlds wrote:
We have to realise family, politics, science, education, consumerism, medicine, law and all of these structures cannot continue to exist as we know them. They must crumble. How they crumble and what will be left we can't say and it's not important right now. It is undeniable there must be a rebellion of sorts
Interesting perspective David. There is some semblance of truth in what you write, in my limited view or opinion. I agree, sometimes truth is not gentle, it may come like a thief in the night and strip us bare (figuratively speaking), or it is a sword that slices away illusions (just a metaphor). Fierce Grace some might call it, (all life is Grace though).

Yet words are never truth, just pointers to truth. If we are not alert, or still somewhat unconscious, there is the possibility of becoming a non-dual fundamentalist, putting a rigid spin or interpretation on what we read. Selecting certain passages over others, taking them literally, and building a belief structure around it. We have seen that with fanatics and the Bible, Qur'an and other texts and traditions. Some individuals even can take on a new false identity as a messiah or savior, or chosen one; (known in psychology as a Messiah Complex). Which can be a rather danger delusion. It is often characterized by delusions of grandeur or persecution. Something to be leery or mindful of.

All just other considerations to add to the mix here. To add balance.

I prefer the approach of allowing all to be as it is, change comes from within and may naturally and organically manifest in the outer. It is an inner revolution. So I will practice what I preach and, give you space to express yourself, without additional replies to you in this thread. And will let the moderators and founders of this board decide what is too far afield, off topic or controversial, for this forum. I do believe in free speech, mine and yours, but we are guests here in someone else's domain, the creators of this forum. So let's keep that in mind going forward. In case anyone has any doubts or misunderstandings, most of the guidelines, purpose and intent of this forum, are stated in the Forum Rules and Guidelines section, found here: http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth ... um.php?f=9

Peace

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

sevenworlds
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by sevenworlds » Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:27 pm

It's fine James. You can respond to as much or as little as you want here. You can disagree with me vehemently. It's all acceptable as far as I am concerned. That is why I keep saying - it is up to you collectively. I am not here to disrupt this forum deliberately but if you collectively feel that is the case I will go. I do not see anything wrong in what I have said but as you say, I am a guest here and so I will allow the hosts to decide. It might sound strange to you, but I can't make that decision. I am like a leaf blowing in the wind. If I get blown out of here I'll land somewhere else and it won't matter.

What I would say about the issue itself... the things you are talking about are already happening. Those who have the potential to love will love regardless and those who hate and become fundamentalist will do so without the help of my words. If I begged someone to commit suicide they could only do so if it was already in them to carry out such an act. I think sometimes you don't give people the credit to think and act for themselves.

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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by Sighclone » Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:27 pm

Both of you very far from violating any rules, with the possible exception of "rules of engagement"...what are your differences gentlemen? I struggle to fully perceive them. I'd like to understand them because you are both articulate, wise and sensitive. And both add to the depth and quality of the forum!!!

Yes, we are warned to avoid "opposition." That to do so is egoic. But I really don't understand fully the discrete differences. It is not egoic to simply identify the differences. PON is full of clarifying corrections to the italicized questions. A gentle: "I disagree because..." can be a wonderful pointer for an outside reader.

Thanks for your careful expressions, both of you!!

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

James
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by James » Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:49 pm

Thanks Andy,
Just another cordial disagreement with David. I personally think the thread is headed in a controversial or political direction, which is discouraged in the forum rules. Your post on political debates: http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth ... f=9&t=5029 sevenworlds seems to be implying that some organized, movement or revolution will be necessary, to throw down society. Perhaps that is not what he means and he would like to clarify? If the forum guidelines are more lax than I thought, and others like this topic, then so be it. Enjoy the discussion, I really don't want to waste any more time on it personally.

I found a decent article on wikipedia regarding Messiah Complexes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_complex

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:07 pm

Rebellious mentality is not an individual consciousness, many have not yet realized that they are carried away by the herd instinct. The world is not going to fall apart as revealed in Revelation of the Bible.

sevenworlds
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by sevenworlds » Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:18 pm

James wrote:sevenworlds seems to be implying that some organized, movement or revolution will be necessary, to throw down society. Perhaps that is not what he means and he would like to clarify?
That is completely your own interpretation, James. I have made it clear several times that I do not believe in organisations, movements or revolutions. That is precisely what I'm pointing out about the structures we already have. They are failing us because they are mind structures. Don't then get the idea I am advocating anarchy because that itself is another thought movement.

Andy, I am not exactly sure how you want me to approach this because I have no approach. I'm not being smart by saying that. This is not an intellectual debate on my part so I can't give logical reasons as to why I disagree with James. I'm not even sure I disagree with him, the disagreement seems to be on his part. The whole thing is quite comical from where I am sitting.

lucy
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by lucy » Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:29 pm

Sevenworlds wrote:We have to realise family, politics, science, education, consumerism, medicine, law and all of these structures cannot continue to exist as we know them. They must crumble. How they crumble and what will be left we can't say and it's not important right now. It is undeniable there must be a rebellion of sorts
David in the words of Sailor Bob Adamson: what's wrong with right now? unless you think about it? Yes, perhaps you are right these structures may have to change, but as Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see in the world". Another words don't worry about the awakening of others. If everyone just focused on their own awakening, the whole world will change. Everybody has the same capacity to awaken.

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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by James » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:16 pm

Perhaps I was too hasty in denouncing this thread.
sevenwordls wrote:
The whole thing is quite comical from where I am sitting.
Yes I am beginning to see the humor and irony in it too.

You wrote:
On the other side, you have a growing 'truth movement', which the internet is helping to spread. People like Alex Jones, Jordan Maxwell, Michael Tsarion and David Icke have all put out work that offers an alternative to the version of reality we're given by the mainstream media and education. This is encouraging in some ways but again, I often see the same mentality. It is very attractive to the young and disillusioned looking for an outlet to vent their own inner conflict at authority. My own way in was through that avenue, especially hearing and reading David Icke. Once my world view collapsed and I could see the system for what it is, it set-up a domino effect for the 'person' to also collapse.

I still see most people stuck in either camp. They haven't really moved on. Those dealing with conspiracies can't seem to make the link between what is happening out there and what is happening inside of themselves. Those on the spiritual side are content with the gentler, loving side of things but don't want to face up to some of the more brutal truths of society.
I get it Conspirituality, you could write a best selling book on the subject.

You mentioned David Icke, tell us more about his Babylon Brotherhood, is it similar to your Babylon System in the title here? You might as well get it all out in the open so we can see what it is you are talking about, what it is we are dealing with. So far it is a bit of mystery.

I found this on wikipedia about David Icke:
Icke argues that he has developed a moral and political worldview that combines New Age spiritualism with a passionate denunciation of what he sees as totalitarian trends in the modern world, a position that has been described as "New Age conspiracism."[2]

At the heart of Icke's theories is the view that the world is ruled by a secret group called the "Global Elite" or "Illuminati," which he has linked to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an anti-Semitic hoax.[3][4] In 1999, he published The Biggest Secret, in which he wrote that the Illuminati are a race of reptilian humanoids known as the Babylonian Brotherhood, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie.[3][5]
Excerpt from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by karmarider » Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:56 pm

lucy wrote:...Another words don't worry about the awakening of others. If everyone just focused on their own awakening, the whole world will change. Everybody has the same capacity to awaken...
These are useful words. How, why or when others awaken is not important. Whether structures crumble, need to crumble or crumble and worse structures arise in their place, as has happened so many times in history--is not important. We can't even know if there is such an event as awakening. We can know, through just a bit of experience with staying present or meditation or awareness or release or whatever floats your boat, that our perception of reality is off. And so we continue.

sevenworlds
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by sevenworlds » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:58 pm

lucy wrote:David in the words of Sailor Bob Adamson: what's wrong with right now?
I don't see anything wrong, therefore I am free to express. What you make of it is your business.
lucy wrote:Yes, perhaps you are right these structures may have to change, but as Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see in the world".
Why do you think I write these posts?

sevenworlds
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by sevenworlds » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:45 am

James, for someone who claims to be full of acceptance, you seem to be very suspicious of people. I told you in the Bob Marley thread I was on no kind of mission here, and yet you still think I have an agenda. Now you are making judgements on David Icke based on what's written on Wikipedia. As you rightly said, I "mentioned David Icke". How you've managed to go from that to your latest conclusions I find bizarre?

David Icke was part of my introduction to 'spiritual matters'. As with Eckhart, I bought a couple of his books, watched various videos of him, got what I needed to get, and moved on. If you seriously want to know more I have nothing to hide and don't mind giving you a bit of background on what he's about but it's pointless really. If you're not getting what I'm saying by now, we're probably best just dropping it.

Btw, that Wikipedia article on Icke's worldview is highly inaccurate. Babylon was an ancient region in the middle-east, where Iraq is now. It seems to have some historical significance in that a lot of the elite governing the world today - politicians and royalty - have been traced back through the Roman Empire to ancient Babylon by researchers. The Rastafarian culture and viewpoint of history, which originates from Africa, also see this link between the system today and Babylon. Icke and Marley have no connection so whether this Babylon thing has significance or is simply coincidence, I don't know.

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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by Onceler » Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:49 am

Not Box Car Willie, say it ain't so.....
Be present, be pleasant.

sevenworlds
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by sevenworlds » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:12 am

Do you know for sure he isn't? :lol:

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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by James » Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:22 am

Yes wikipedia info is questionable however those excerpts have links to third party resources, which may be accurate. No I did not follow up and track down what is accurate. I was hoping you could do that for us. I am particularly interested in Icke's reptialian, humanoid theory. I guess we could just go to his website to hear it from the horse's mouth. http://www.davidicke.com/index.php/ And no I don't trust you, why should I? Healthy skepticism seems in order here. That Doesn't mean I can't accept you as you are, delusions and all, (if that is what they are); you said blunt and frank talk was preferable with you, remember you said truth is not always gentle. So there you have it, as I see it.

You still could explain to us the essence of your Babylon System Rebellion. Rather than keeping your mission somewhat covert.

Babble on please. :wink:

james

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