Rebelling the Babylon System

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James
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by James » Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:14 pm

Hi Lucy
I hear what you are saying, and it may seem reasonable. But awakening is not reasonable or rational, it is radical honesty. The heart of these theories is to blame or demonize certain people or groups, known as projection; which is what minds do. To the mind it seems reasonable and rational to do that. Why to the mind it seems obvious that someone or something, must be to blame.

I see the issue as the collective insanity, or unconsciousness, no one, or no group is personally to blame or responsible for it. Awakening always begins with oneself, I think we agree on that point. I see mass proselytizing, as some suggest, to those that aren't interested, as counter effective. Especially when those tactics use fear and paranoia as a motivator. It is the same old consciousness trying to create a new age of awakening. What does fear know about truth?.... Nothing.

Anyway, that's how I see it, I don't wish to debate it any further. Everyone is entitled to their own view. I wish sevenworlds the best on his path.

By the way Lucy, I sent you a private message several weeks ago, that is still in my outbox, did you get it?

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

lucy
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by lucy » Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:46 pm

James wrote: But awakening is not reasonable or rational, it is radical honesty. The heart of these theories is to blame or demonize certain people or groups, known as projection
Well said and I agree whole heartedily.

Juniper22
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by Juniper22 » Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:30 am

James and Lucy,

I agree with some of your points about not reacting to our surroundings through fear. Sometimes we can look at what`s happening around us and see things are not the way we would like them to be. Many people are stunted by fear their whole lives and not doing what they feel they should be doing as the fear of failure is too great. We have to learn to take full responsability for our own thoughts and actions/inactions in life.

I don`t have much to say about the next talk except it created quite a stir over the years. It was released in 1994 and the interviewee only recently released a new interview on the same topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWvW3T84 ... playnext=1
"Don`t think of goodness; don`t think of evil; at this instant, what is your original face?" Hui Neng

James
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by James » Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:29 am

Very nicely said Juniper.

I'll just add that blaming others (projection), keeps the fear in denial (unconscious), and maintains the egoic sense of self.

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

lucy
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by lucy » Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:46 am

Juniper22 wrote: Many people are stunted by fear their whole lives and not doing what they feel they should be doing as the fear of failure is too great.
I would say most people Juniper. I know this was certainly true in may case. No matter what I did or where I was, I always felt like there was something missing, and that my life was passing me by. I guess that feeling of incompleteness is what drives a lot of people to the spirtual search. I was looking to complete myself in the manifestation, of course this is impossible, because how does something that doesn't exist complete itself. The only time I really feel complete is when I relax into the emptiness and that can only take place in the moment.
Juniper22 wrote:Sometimes we can look at what`s happening around us and see things are not the way we would like them to be.
Yeah we don't have to like them, but as Byron Katie says "it's easier if we do". I'm not talking about inaction, but we need to remember that there is a difference between reacting to what you don't like and responding to it.

I haven't had the chance to view the link but thanks for posting it.

sevenworlds
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by sevenworlds » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:41 am

lucy wrote:We are all consciousness. You make assumptions about people (they are all liars you say) and yet when other people make assumptions about you, you chasitise them and point out how they arrived at that conclusion by comparing you to others. Well how did you arrive at the conclusion that "they are liars"?, was it not by comparing them to those who you think are telling the truth? Or comparing it to a truth that you know to be true inside?
Lucy, all of my responses are being driven by you. I have no way of knowing what state you are in without those. Your initial post on this topic suggested to me you didn't get why I had brought this topic up. Then you suggested I must have an agenda or I wouldn't be here. So you have an agenda then? It is from these things you have said that I get the feeling you cannot be operating from the same place.

These words carry their own authority but you are not listening. To you, it sounds like I'm comparing for my sake, but I am actually comparing for your sake. You won't listen to me because to you, I am just some unknown guy on an internet forum. There is too much at stake if you fully accept what I'm saying. So I bring in other well-known figures to emphasise certain points. As soon as I walk away from these discussions there is nothing there. I'm not bothered about what state others are in. Your last few questions there again suggest you are not operating from here otherwise you wouldn't ask them. For anyone to speak about this, they can only do so by comparing with what was there before.
lucy wrote:And what makes your motivation to communicate this any purer than those people who you are referring to as liars?
Again, you wouldn't ask that question if you got it. I am also a liar. I am no different to them. You are no different to them but you seem to think you are and so you have to find out for yourself how I am able to make these kinds of statements. When you do, you wouldn't ask me questions like that.
lucy wrote:Again, more assumptions. You say you operate beyond beliefs, but in my experience assumptions are based on beliefs. And weather you want to admit it or not, you are here illuminating or teaching or whatever you want to call it, the only differnce between you and the very teachers you criticize is that they are writing books and seminars and you are posting on a forum.

Thank you for that woman's account on Eckhart. I don't hold ET up in any regard, I follow his advice that all teachers will eventually fail you.
Who says they are assumptions? They are not assumptions to me. I don't believe a single word I say. Everything I say is yours. It's like Icke said in that video - "The only reason we use words is because others would wonder when we are going to speak". Since this is an internet forum, all I have is words. The words mean nothing to me but they seem to mean something to you.

sevenworlds
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by sevenworlds » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:11 am

I'm still puzzled at how some are getting the idea this is about inciting riots or anarchy. This demonstrates how we're still very much caught up in words and language, even when we like to believe we're not. Had the title of this topic been called "Loving the Babylon System" would the reaction be the same?
letitgo wrote:“Don’t tell him about Gurus and disciples - this way of thinking is not for him” and “As long as he does not trust himself, he cannot trust another.” These two sentences point to a very effective, yet sneaky way to cause someone lost in their own dream, how to begin to question everything. A completely obvious and necessary goal for a Guru used to dealing with flocks of “Easterner’s” at his feet simply looking for enlightenment.

This is the rebellion he is talking about. A rebellion against your own beliefs. He seems to answer the question with obvious poignancy, and in no way is inciting to riot.
That is what this whole topic has been about. Whether it's Bob Marley, David Icke or Maharaj, they are all pointing you to a rebellion against your own beliefs. Then the System will automatically crumble. They are first feeding it to you in plain, everyday language, telling you to look at the ways the system controls you (or rather how your beliefs ALLOW the system to control you), and if you do that honestly and ruthlessly, your beliefs will start to crumble. As they crumble within, the way you interact with society will change and when enough people do this, the society will collapse and allow something new to emerge, which will be a reflection of our new inner state. No rioting or anarchy is necessary, but if those things happen along the way, they will be caused by those left behind who are reacting in fear at their old structures collapsing, not those of us who have undone the shackles of mind.

I'm very surprised this has caused such a reaction. Eckhart doesn't give you it straight like this, but in A New Earth, he mentions how many of our current structures are crumbling and how you can already see evidence of this. I see it all the time. Also, I remember hearing him on an audio talk a couple of years ago saying "They won't tell you about the awakening on CNN, they don't mention it on the news, it's almost some sort of conspiracy...". It would be more of a surprise if those running things (who are heavily mind-orientated) DIDN'T attempt to stop this awakening somehow.

Yes, there will be people who get heavily into the conspiracy side of things on a mind level. That's unavoidable. The other side of that coin though is pretending to be 'spiritual' yet refusing to acknowledge it at all and calling it fearful. Fearful to who? It can only be fearful if there is a 'you' there. If you wake up through the traditional Eastern teachings you won't need this conspiracy angle, but if so, this whole topic would not be a threat to you at all anyway.

I think the real issue here is many think they want Truth/Freedom/Self-Realisation but what they want is another thing entirely.

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Webwanderer
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:03 pm

sevenworlds wrote: Who says they are assumptions? They are not assumptions to me. I don't believe a single word I say. Everything I say is yours.
That's kind of what makes them assumptions. They are the unrecognized lenses through which we view life. It's like looking through eye glasses. The wearer doesn't notice he/she wears them until they shift focus to them. And by claiming no belief in the words you say seems like useful denial so as to avoid accountability for what is expressed. It's the best of both worlds - say anything that comes to mind and deny any authorship for it so it needs no defense.

In fairness to the posters who have a different take on it, by the standards you espouse, their responses are likewise just the flow of information being spontaneously expressed through the uniqueness of a thought structure that was somehow organized for that purpose. So any disagreement is simply a natural cause and effect relationship to the words you offer. And there can be no lies because there are no liers - only an appearance of them. Unless of course one perceives appearance itself as a lie.

But then the lier would be Source itself. Hmm. Wait, a lie at this level couldn't be a lie as there is no one to lie to and the truth is known by the creator all the while. It's more like art. But one could call art a lie as well, and perceive it so honestly just by taking an extreme viewpoint that the expression is not the inspiration and therefore a false representation.

There seems to be a lot of fear here. The negative veiw appears to be protective of vulnerabiltiy to failed optimism. Rather than enjoy the art for what it is (a creative expression) it's decided to point out the flaws in the medium. It's really okay to understand the medium and enjoy the art - maybe even engage our own creativity and see what happens.

Understand however, that I don't believe a word of this because there is no I to believe it. It is just a reflection of energy doing what energy does.

WW

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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by letitgo » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:44 pm

sevenworlds said;
I'm still puzzled at how some are getting the idea this is about inciting riots or anarchy.
I don’t know why you’re so shocked that a post stating “Rebelling”, and your statements ringing with “anarchy“, received such a response. We create ourselves over and over every moment into our own reality, and you are vehemently, in my opinion, creating yourself a nice tidy reality of chaos.

In my reality, for example, the world awakens slowly and gently in each person's individual soul's own ability to accept the changes that are necessary and needed as they relate to that individual. And that the world slowly and gently begins to create a new mass consciousness with higher and lighter and more tolerant views. And this new world evolves and changes into this new consciousness with an overall awareness that "collapsing" and "anarchy" are not necessary. And I also believe that if enough people open up to the scenario I just described, that your reality could very possibly be superseded by that mass consciousness of higher and lighter thought.

I guess we'll just have to see what happens....
To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world.

lucy
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by lucy » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:27 pm

Sevenworlds,

I ressonate with a lot of things you have pointed out e.g. we let our beliefs control us. I don't have any problem with the word rebel either but In my experience a belief, when seen through, disappears automatically, it doesn't have to be rebelled against. If a cave has been dark for thousands of years, all you need is a single candle to dispel the darkeness, it doesn't have to be lit for thousands of years to remove the darkness.

My so called spirtual journey has come down to simple ressonace and dissonance. If what you say resonates in my heart (without the involvement of mind) I find it to be true, if there is a feeling of dissonace in the area of the heart with what you say (without involvement of mind) than what you say is not the Truth for me. This is a simple meter that I have found very helpful. The feeling of dissonance does not come from my fearing anything, it comes from exclusion. Some of what you have said carries with it an energy of exclusion, and in my experience exclusion can never be a part of awakening, for Consciousness excludes nothing.

WW
Webwanderer wrote:There seems to be a lot of fear here. The negative veiw appears to be protective of vulnerabiltiy to optimism. Rather than enjoy the art for what it is (a creative expression) it's decided to point out the flaws in the medium. It's really okay to understand the medium and enjoy the art - maybe even engage our own creativity and see what happens.
I agree. Either you can hang out in the emptiness and not let life touch you, or you can dive in and taste the feast knowing full well that it's not real.

sevenworlds
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by sevenworlds » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:07 pm

WW, I don't think you are getting where I'm coming from. The words are not important to me. That's all I'm saying. I don't like to say it like this, because the mind will want to take this statement and make something out of it, but I don't know how else to say it... There is a certain 'energy' which is somehow carried by the words. The only reason for writing any words is that. The actual words themselves are irrelevant. I could list a stream of obscenities and it could carry that 'energy'.

So the typing happens. I let it express without obstruction. There is always peace here no matter what is being said. That's the only indication I have because I am no longer able to even turn around and ask myself "Is that your ego?". There was a time when I would do that but then that itself had to be dissolved. How can it be freedom when you constantly have to check your words and actions all the time? That is the pitfall of these teachers. They get you to that point but you can't get any further. I really do not know anything about the state I am in other than there is a natural peace there and all my questions about life that used to be there are now gone. I can't even will myself to think them anymore. To ask yourself "is that my ego?" there must still be a division. There comes a point when that has to go and you really don't know what is left. Everytime you try and grab it, it slips through your fingers.

So that is why I have no problem with whatever words come out of me. They come out of what I've just described and because of that, there is a complete freedom. You have no idea how much energy is unleashed when the whole thing collapses. It is that energy which provides the force to say the things I say. If you read them differently that says more about you than me. Nothing I can do about that.

sevenworlds
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by sevenworlds » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:30 pm

letitgo wrote:I don’t know why you’re so shocked that a post stating “Rebelling”, and your statements ringing with “anarchy“, received such a response. We create ourselves over and over every moment into our own reality, and you are vehemently, in my opinion, creating yourself a nice tidy reality of chaos.
You see, you are the one who is saying my statements are "ringing with 'anarchy'". I have never used the words anarchy, riot or chaos. These are all your interpretations because you are too busy trying to fit my words into a box rather than actually listening to what I say.
letitgo wrote:In my reality, for example, the world awakens slowly and gently in each person's individual soul's own ability to accept the changes that are necessary and needed as they relate to that individual.
Again, that is your reality. That's not how it's going to be for everyone. It didn't happen slowly and gently to me and you can find many others who have had it happen similarly. There is no logic, no progress, no time involved in this. They are all of the mind. An earthquake just hits. This is a natural force in the same way.
lucy wrote:I don't have any problem with the word rebel either but In my experience a belief, when seen through, disappears automatically, it doesn't have to be rebelled against.
The use of 'rebel' is just to take you to a certain point. It can meet people where they are in their current life situation, make them stop and listen. For instance, if Bob Marley was to have sung songs in an expression similar to traditional teachings would black kids in the ghetto have listened? It wouldn't mean anything to them. But they definitely knew about how the system was screwing them over everyday, preventing them getting jobs, keeping them down, etc... So they are pulled in by that, and then there is potential for the 'energy' itself to hit them and awaken them. At that point they will know exactly what he means and so they aren't going to create violence and anarchy.
lucy wrote:If what you say resonates in my heart (without the involvement of mind) I find it to be true, if there is a feeling of dissonace in the area of the heart with what you say (without involvement of mind) than what you say is not the Truth for me. This is a simple meter that I have found very helpful.
Yes, I went through that stage but that also has to be seen for what it is. The mind is still there interpreting in a more refined manner. A certain intelligence awakens that is beyond what most people experience but the trap is to get stuck there. There is still a division. When it all goes, you don't even need to be measuring things in that manner. You just are where you are, doing what you're doing, and you don't even need to know why.

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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by lucy » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:51 pm

sevenworlds wrote:A certain intelligence awakens that is beyond what most people experience but the trap is to get stuck there. There is still a division.
Your words a very wise sevenworlds, I think you should heed them.

randomguy
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by randomguy » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:30 pm

Story time. :)

Once upon a time there was a boy in a submarine. His very own submarine. It was vary peaceful beneath the waves and safe.

The sea was rich with life and experience which the boy could view from within the shiny hull.

From the submarine pariscope, the boy could flash signals to others; people in boats on the surface, people snorkeling and scuba diving, and people in other submarines. They could flash back and tap on the submarine hull.

The boy lied back and half asleep and tapped away on the signal light. I don't care what I'm flashing he thought. I'm not even doing it. It is what it is and doesn't matter. I send my peace through the flashes.

He heard some taps on his hull. Ah, someone is misinterpreting, that's not what I meant at all when I flashed my signal. I didn't even say anything about rocks. It doesn't matter, I am at peace.

Then the submarine crashed into underwater rocks. A crack formed in the hull and water rushed in. The boy was under water but he simply opened the hatch and swam out into the sea. To his surprise, the boy could breath under water and it felt safe and free. How wonderful he thought.

I never even needed to keep the water out, he thought. And the signaling, yes, he thought, it truly doesn't matter.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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mistral
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Re: Rebelling the Babylon System

Post by mistral » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:01 pm

Dear Sevenworlds,

I get exactly what you are saying....The same thing has been on my mind too.

From what I am seeing in my life, I think all this 'turmoil' and confusion going on in the world, is very much about the confusion over what exactly ‘would oneness look like’ when seen ‘out there’ in the world scene. This is an important subject.

Many are beginning to feel, sense a new dimension being added, understanding the concepts of ‘Oneness’ and ‘Non-duality’ and “the Absolute’ and ‘me is not real’ ideas….whether we have reached this new Subjective view of the world by way of the quantum science or via the Eastern spiritual paths.

But the 'subjective nature of consciousness is braking through our ordinary objective thought' and we all beginning to see the oneness of Life....however understanding all this does not mean that we live in a sterile void of "absoluteness' that denies the objective, time, space, matter world.

The mistake is that some think that communism, socialism, fascism are the natural 'product' of "an enlightened being seeing ONENESS and LOVE for All Selfhood"... This is big mistake. Thinking that the “one world government’ is ‘divine manifestation’ of enlightenment is really truly going to cause a great deal of pain and suffering. These tyrannical agendas are the exact opposite of what an ‘enlightened humanity’ would look like in tangible world ‘systems’.

Love and Peace and Oneness actually and truthfully lived manifests as a Grand and Glorious Individuality of Each and Everyone of us...We become much more Unique and Independent, solely powerful unto our own Selfhood, whole and complete and confident. When we find our True Identity we find our very Own Divine Gifts and God Given Birthrights that have always and already are here within us.

Therefore we become unbeholden to any 'system' or any 'human governments' ..and we certainly to do not ‘worship’ or bow to any ‘idols’ who put themselves up as the all knowing ‘authority’. We know better. We know That Authority is Within Us; You and Me…It is not found ‘out there’.

Once we realized the church and religions had it all wrong, that they were not telling us the Truth; that they would be the ‘go between’ which would get us to connect to the goodness, security, love of a big God in the sky’….Now we have to see that no government can provide for us either…there is no ‘go between’ that will give us the ‘goodness and security’ we wish to live in the world.

By way of True Self-Discovery we find The Go Between is the Light of Intelligence Within Each and Everyone of us….I call it Grace and It most certainly leads me aright ( my friend http://www.williamsamuel.com calls it The Child Within)

You all recall the people who follow cults and turn themselves over to the Guru or the Divine Leader, the charismatic teacher, the Jim Jones of the times...and we all know exactly what happens when people do that...they get lead 'wrong' and usually end up living under the rule of fear, often dead, or certainly unable to think for themselves and having a hell of time trying to free themselves.

This is how dictatorships happen…they take our freedoms from us. And they can do that because most people do not know that they have a Divine Individuality, wholly and Holy theirs. It is wise and It is all powerful to each of us because It is ‘connected to’ The One Mind of God’s Living Light. The guru or preacher or government leaders certainly will not tell us the truth, for they then lose all their power over the collective-group.

Powerful leaders know how to use these innocent ones and how to get them to give up even more of themselves for the 'greater good', for Love and in the name of ‘oneness’ and ‘enlightenment’.

This is, as I see it, what is happening now; the leaders are getting on some huge power trips and of course none of them would ever tellus we are powerful individuals unto our own selves….which is The Living Truth. The cult dynamic is now occurring on an enormous scale, world wide 'trust in the leaders’ (always these things happen when there is a great deal of fear, and the leaders deliberately use these fears to their advantage)

This world wide 'giving up our Self for the 'collective' thinking that 'collective mind' has taken over even in America…those who used be such strong supporters of the individual. The Divine Individual is imaginative, creative, non-conformist, artistic, genius, talented, gifted and above all faithful and devoted to the Light Within His Own Self.

Do we believe that communism, socialism, collectivism and bigger governments taking over our lives is how The One Divine Consciousness-Mind-Awareness is being manifested now? .. Well, It is NOT...the scene we are seeing now is the result of many lost souls who have turned away from The Light Within The Self ….and because they are frightened they are seeking security in 'human governments, religions, systems, and the agenda of the ‘whole community'.

I think the best thing we can do to 'help' is to stand fully and wholesomely in our Divine Nature of Individuality...You will find from out of this there are wise and ‘right’ ways to do what needs to be done for the dark and foreboding situations and circumstances that being created in the world now.

I have a friend who wrote a whole book about these times that are upon us. His book was written in the 1980's “The Child Within Us Lives! A Synthesis of Science, Religion and Metaphysics” and it is written by a true, humble, unpretentious, honest man and genuine mystic. Here is the link to a few excerpts from his books: http://www.williamsamuel.com/01-03-08-cw-popcorn.htm

As Mind Everything 'matters'.... The job is to Find The Self and Live It....

Mistral

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