What do you see?

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sevenworlds
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What do you see?

Post by sevenworlds » Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:41 pm

I am sitting in my bedroom here. I only call it a "bedroom" because that is what I have been taught to call such a place. Similarly, all the objects in this room I can give a name to. This is fine for the purposes of communication but when we take it for granted it becomes a problem. In truth, I really do not know where I am. Why do I need to constantly recognise my surroundings? If I don't recognise, then I don't know what I'm looking at.

Everything that exists for me right now is here. There is nothing else but this because if there is anything else, then I am in imagination. I am bringing the past or future into it. If I say "Africa", it is only a word, some sounds happening here. This is important because the media, and in particular the news, are able to manipulate us daily when we forget that. If they show famine in Africa or war in the Middle East, still the reality to me, all that exists to me, are images on a tv screen. I don't even know it's a tv screen without that knowledge obscuring what is. I still do not know for myself that these places actually exist, nevermind knowing such acts are being carried out there. Yet through this device, I can allow myself to feel certain emotions. Then I want some sort of imaginary action to take place to remedy what I have imagined from seeing these images on my tv screen or newspaper. I can set up or give to charities based on this flaw. The whole world is caught up in this game of imagination.

In the case of places, it starts at school. They showed me maps of the world, told me it was round, where all the places are. Movies, songs, tv, books, other people, etc... have all added to that knowledge so that now when someone says, "New York", already I can create an image of it. That image is born from second-hand information. In reality, it's still just a sound, some letters. Even if I go there... how is it different to my room here? What appears in front of me changes but what is it actually that I'm seeing? I'm not seeing "New York". If I'm not wise, they can sell me holidays on this basic error.

Now take that to people - your relationships. When you look at your husband, wife or your mother or child... what are you seeing? The past? If you are dealing with what actually is, right in front of you, you really don't know what you're looking at. You can't even say it's a "person" or a "human being". What happens to your relationships if that dawns on you?

We take so many things for granted and we have to because the alternative is frightening, from the perspective of the society we are currently operating in. It's very dangerous to not know what you are looking at, what you are hearing, touching, tasting. The structures we operate under collapse when you see what is with that kind of clarity.

Glycine
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Re: What do you see?

Post by Glycine » Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:46 pm

Even what we see right in front of us is still constructed by our brain from fragments. Even when we read a book or text on the computer screen, our eyes scan and send bits of information to the brain which then puts everything together.
What we actually see is very little, but better than nothing.
Our society may not be perfect, but I guess that it functions the way it does for the same reason we are able to see with our eyes.

James
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Re: What do you see?

Post by James » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:19 pm

There is a relative reality and an absolute reality. I think the key is to balance those two polarities. Dismissing the relative reality as merely an illusion with no inherent value or purpose, appears a bit extreme. I see a more accurate description of truth is that "the relative world is an expression of the absolute." The absolute made manifest. It may be a hologram, dream or whatever one chooses to call it. But it exists in awareness as a divine idea. Therefore it is given its rightful place. What needs adjustment is our perception, or distortions of how it appears. These are based on beliefs and false identifications.

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

sevenworlds
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Re: What do you see?

Post by sevenworlds » Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:52 pm

It is the mind which wants to believe these are extreme statements. If what is being pointed to is seen, they are harmless. The mind likes to rationalise everything and if you give it things in a neat, conservative manner it slyly tricks itself into believing it is seeing what is pointed to when it is only intellectually understanding the statements themselves.

These things are only expressed to nudge those who are ready off the cliff. There is no need to worry where they will fall because then Life itself will directly look after them and allow everything to fall into place. Relative and absolute reality will mean nothing because Life will do all the balancing necessary.

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Sighclone
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Re: What do you see?

Post by Sighclone » Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:23 pm

I totally echo james here. There is a dualistic, relative reality. It can and does express the Infinite. Asserting that all our perceptions are somehow manipulated by others is false. That may be a belief an individual needs to hold for a while, but when I drop a brick on my foot, and it hurts and I cannot walk, that is a very real, manifested event in my life, undistorted by any perception other than mine. It is not abstract, it is not a word, and it's going to take Life a while to heal it.

Denying authentic perception and experience of dualistic reality is a sad, proud distortion of nonduality foisted by the narrow absolutist "holier than thou" Neo-Advaitists. Fortunately Life makes it easy to debunk.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

lucy
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Re: What do you see?

Post by lucy » Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:10 pm

Sighclone wrote:Denying authentic perception and experience of dualistic reality is a sad, proud distortion of nonduality foisted by the narrow absolutist "holier than thou" Neo-Advaitists. Fortunately Life makes it easy to debunk.
I think the problem is that "separate" is often mixed up with "diverse". Authentic perception is whatever is arising. Reality arises as one big chunk: computer-keyboard-window-chair-wall -etc... there is no separation between anything. It all arises as the One even though there is diversity. Of course you know that in common day language, that is called a chair, but it is not separate from you at this moment, it is made up of the very same "stuff". Apparent separation only occurs when imagination or the mind is employed, up until then everything is Whole.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: What do you see?

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:07 pm

Attachment to what is real and what is unreal is the inability of the ego to trust. Ego is a mechanism of survival, and it is self-centered which requires the assumption that individual self is to be protected no matter what.

When one sees beyond ego's perspective, what does one see matters not. One's mind still needs to function to cope with daily living of the organism form unless the awakened person has enough Karma credit to elect to forsake the organism form.

What is frightening works on certain individuals with certain Karma characteristic.

It is also interesting to observe that some awakened people tend to be partial to the paths from which they experience the awakening.

"There are 84,000 paths to Enlightenment." -- Buddha.

sevenworlds
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Re: What do you see?

Post by sevenworlds » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:23 pm

Sighclone wrote:That may be a belief an individual needs to hold for a while, but when I drop a brick on my foot, and it hurts and I cannot walk, that is a very real, manifested event in my life, undistorted by any perception other than mine. It is not abstract, it is not a word, and it's going to take Life a while to heal it.
You don't need to know it is a brick for it to hurt and be real, that's what I'm saying. You don't need to know what the 'thing' is and you don't need to separate the 'thing' from everything else around it. In the same way, why do you need to know you are looking at your 'wife'? Only to maintain the idea of 'relationship'. You need to know so that you can function properly as society dictates, as 'husband' and 'wife'. 'Wife' is an idea that must be maintained and it is made up of other ideas. There is no reason you couldn't get along with the being you call 'wife' without that label being there, but then where would you be? You wouldn't know how to act, what to do. It is this superimposition on top of reality that I am talking about. That there appears to be another being there is not in doubt. It doesn't cause a problem. That we stick all these layers of ideas on top of that being does.

When I watch the news, they aren't just giving me pictures from other places and allowing me to see what is happening. Even if they were doing that, my reality would still be abstract images on a tv screen - that part is my reality but no more than that. What they are doing is filming something (and even at this point they have an agenda so their filming is clouded), then superimposing their own ideas on top of that filming, for the purposes of interesting, shocking, disgusting, or pleasing me, and then based on that, if I am sucked in, I am further superimposing my own abstractions on top of theirs. Collectively, this is a reaction from the public, causing governments and organisations (themselves nothing but a bunch of ideas) to act and the whole thing snowballs endlessly. This could go on for a million more years and never solve any of the problems of the world.

If everyone only dealt with what is, everyone would only be dealing with their own immediate environment because that would be their reality in any given moment. No abstractions about what was going on elsewhere - past and future - and life would be so much simpler and harmonious for all.

lucy
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Re: What do you see?

Post by lucy » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:53 pm

sevenworlds wrote:If everyone only dealt with what is, everyone would only be dealing with their own immediate environment because that would be their reality in any given moment. No abstractions about what was going on elsewhere - past and future - and life would be so much simpler and harmonious for all.
Yes, but before that can take place it has to be seen/realized that past and future are not real. We are so used to granting reality to everything other than what exists right in front of us.

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Onceler
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Re: What do you see?

Post by Onceler » Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:14 am

The Buddhist notion that reality is simultaneously real and illusion works for me. The "illusion" part energizes constant deconstruction of beliefs as 7worlds suggests.

The "real" helps the spaced out nondualist jump on the curb when they hear a car horn.

Is it a phasial thing? Phasing into the unreal (or hyper-real) when we are deeply connected to being?
Be present, be pleasant.

sevenworlds
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Re: What do you see?

Post by sevenworlds » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:31 pm

What seems to frighten a lot of people when I say things like this is fear of losing control. We always need to know. We like to know our surroundings and be able to label what is going on around us. If we don't recognise wife as 'wife', friend as 'friend', what will be there? What an empty existence. Yet where can these things go? Everything is here. You can't get rid of anything. It's simply that it all falls into a very efficient natural state.

Just because you don't recognise things won't mean you will bump into things or have amnesia when it comes to your family. It's not a zombie, nothingness state. You don't need to recognise it's a car horn to jump on the pavement. That is the immense intelligence of Life that is there once mind goes. It is your own personal will and control that goes, and that is scary to some.

For instance, I can no longer recall memories using my own will. There was a time I could cast my mind back and specifically remember events from my past or use my imagination to plan the future. That personal will is broken and I just cannot force myself to do that now. I could have had a long conversation with someone at the weekend and now it is gone. I can't go over it, choosing specific bits I want to remember. So in that way, nostalgia is out. Doesn't mean the events are lost. They are all recorded somewhere but I can no longer manipulate them for my own sake. When memories or thoughts do happen, they happen of their own accord. They are nothing to do with me.

As long as we have relationships with people, places, objects we deny that intelligence it's chance. We are trying to keep a timeline going. That's why anniversaries are so important to society. Once this hit me, birthdays, Christmas, Easter, all these things seemed pointless. I'm not against them but it would require my own personal will to force myself to remember someone's birthday and buy them a card and I can't do that.

randomguy
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Re: What do you see?

Post by randomguy » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:04 pm

sevenworlds wrote:What seems to frighten a lot of people when I say things like this is fear of losing control. We always need to know. We like to know our surroundings and be able to label what is going on around us. If we don't recognise wife as 'wife', friend as 'friend', what will be there? What an empty existence. ...
Why an empty existence? What am I looking at? I don't know. I see an apple, it is beyond the label of apple, it is universally, energetically existing as I am existing. What is a label to be troubled by? What is a word to be troubled by? What is there at all to be troubled by?

Who are these frightened people? I don't see them. What is this thought of them and the consequences of using labels? Where does that live?

Could it be that this story is begging for life energy as much as these imagined people are begging for stability through labels?
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

Glycine
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Re: What do you see?

Post by Glycine » Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:35 pm

sevenworlds wrote:What seems to frighten a lot of people when I say things like this is fear of losing control. We always need to know. We like to know our surroundings and be able to label what is going on around us. If we don't recognise wife as 'wife', friend as 'friend', what will be there? What an empty existence. Yet where can these things go? Everything is here. You can't get rid of anything. It's simply that it all falls into a very efficient natural state.
What if the natural state consists of labeling and trying to control? It seems to me ultimately that all our states are "natural."

karmarider
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Re: What do you see?

Post by karmarider » Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:57 pm

I read the original post as simply saying be present, here and now. It's easiest to be present with that which is already present: perceptions, body, breath. That's helpful advice.

I would add it helps to practice a release or healing technique, to deal with emotion turmoil that may come up.

The rest of it--fear, the true nature reality, the past, and the rest, are all discovered in presence. Either everyone's experience is different, or the concepts they use to point to the experience are different. My experience is that awareness is the container of everything I can experience, and every experience is Now. Awareness is constant and prior to all mental activity. Awareness is timeless. It seems that many of things we consider good come from awareness: intelligence, joy of being, peace, love and compassion...

That's actual experience and so I can count on it. When I hear concepts about Oneness, true reality and illusions, relative and absolute reality, manifested and unmanifested, eternal and infinity--well, those are just concepts, possibly pointers, possibly obstacles, and certainly only other people's words.

sevenworlds
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Re: What do you see?

Post by sevenworlds » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:23 pm

randomguy wrote:Why an empty existence?
It is not an empty existence to me. These are terms that are often suggested, implied or thrown directly at me when I explain how I am functioning. That is the only indication I have that others believe they are not functioning in the same way. So for the purposes of this dialogue, I am simply spotlighting how the mind can set this up to seem like an empty existence devoid of all it's comforts to maintain itself.
randomguy wrote:Who are these frightened people?


They are very much here otherwise a forum like this would have no reason to exist.
randomguy wrote:Could it be that this story is begging for life energy as much as these imagined people are begging for stability through labels?
If you believe so. But then why do you continue to give it life energy? All the time I am only making statements. The reactions seem to suggest these statements mean more to others than to me.
Glycine wrote:What if the natural state consists of labeling and trying to control? It seems to me ultimately that all our states are "natural."
There is no 'natural state'. It is a term used to convey something which cannot be conveyed. It is necessary to use some sort of term to communicate on here. To me there is no such thing as 'natural'. If this was known as a fact by all, then no discussion would be necessary. Since this forum has been set-up to either discuss Eckhart Tolle's teachings or spirituality in general (both of which there would be no demand for if concepts weren't getting in the way of living), and since I have found myself here, I am using it as a place to point out certain things. Nobody has to listen or agree. But... based on this, the only way we can communicate and bring things to light, is to assume there is an 'unnatural state', a state in which ideas/beliefs/concepts are clouding life and making living a problem.

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