What do you see?

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
Tony-S-Ma
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:07 pm

Re: What do you see?

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:23 pm

sevenworlds wrote:
There is no 'natural state'. It is a term used to convey something which cannot be conveyed. It is necessary to use some sort of term to communicate on here. To me there is no such thing as 'natural'. If this was known as a fact by all, then no discussion would be necessary. Since this forum has been set-up to either discuss Eckhart Tolle's teachings or spirituality in general (both of which there would be no demand for if concepts weren't getting in the way of living), and since I have found myself here, I am using it as a place to point out certain things. Nobody has to listen or agree. But... based on this, the only way we can communicate and bring things to light, is to assume there is an 'unnatural state', a state in which ideas/beliefs/concepts are clouding life and making living a problem.
It seems that one cannot escape from using one's mind while participating in this forum. What/who deems living in the mind is getting in the way of living? Stephen Hawking, Newton, Einstein and etc. seemed be fine. They may not be very intelligent as far as instinct is concerned considering getting out of the way of a honking car; however, Life has blessed them with something else.

"Be grateful and happy with the one is blessed with" and "Accept what one is blessed with may not be a blessing for another" may be helpful.

Juniper22
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Re: What do you see?

Post by Juniper22 » Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:52 pm

Sighclone, you first stated -
I totally echo james here. There is a dualistic, relative reality.


You then added,
Asserting that all our perceptions are somehow manipulated by others is false.


Do you see the conundrum here...? Your dualistic, relative reality is what you perceive through the mind. You have been (knowingly or unknowingly) manipulated to perceive this.
"Don`t think of goodness; don`t think of evil; at this instant, what is your original face?" Hui Neng

Glycine
Posts: 290
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Re: What do you see?

Post by Glycine » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:45 pm

Hello Sevenworlds,
You are very good with words.
What do you see during deep sleep?
I, for one, cannot find anything in there, and it puzzles me!

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: What do you see?

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Wed Apr 15, 2009 11:56 pm

Juniper22 wrote:Sighclone, you first stated -
I totally echo james here. There is a dualistic, relative reality.


You then added,
Asserting that all our perceptions are somehow manipulated by others is false.


Do you see the conundrum here...? Your dualistic, relative reality is what you perceive through the mind. You have been (knowingly or unknowingly) manipulated to perceive this.
Accepting one's own perspective is incomplete opens the door to non-duality. After that the door is opened, there may be a huge struggle with the ego whether to live a Karma-neutral life (U.G. Krishnamurti) , or to attempt to transcend Karma neutral position(G.I. Gurdjieff) , or to go for the highest possible enlightenment in a human body(Buddha).

Ego will leave one alone when one is Karma-neutral. Ego survives fine within one's past Karma. Ego has no problem dealing with one's attempt to transcend Karma neutral position as long as there is a positionality to transcend. Ego is in trouble when one's heart is opened to The Love/Compassion of the Self. From that day on, ego's days are numbered.

Buddha taught Compassion, and Jesus taught Love. Both of which transcend Karma-neutral living. If practiced, one may experience the neutralization of one's past Karma. One's ego will fall apart when such neutralization becomes progressive.

Nevertheless, being able to live Karma-neutral in this life is an awakening from the total grasp of one's ego.

sevenworlds
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Re: What do you see?

Post by sevenworlds » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:58 am

Glycine wrote:You are very good with words.
Obviously not. I don't even know what I'm saying or why I'm saying it.
Glycine wrote:What do you see during deep sleep?
I, for one, cannot find anything in there, and it puzzles me!
Yes, but that is taken for granted. To say this is a state akin to waking deep sleep is not untrue but it tends to pass over people.

randomguy
Posts: 962
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:00 am

Re: What do you see?

Post by randomguy » Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:42 am

sevenworlds wrote:
randomguy wrote:Why an empty existence?
It is not an empty existence to me. These are terms that are often suggested, implied or thrown directly at me when I explain how I am functioning. That is the only indication I have that others believe they are not functioning in the same way. So for the purposes of this dialogue, I am simply spotlighting how the mind can set this up to seem like an empty existence devoid of all it's comforts to maintain itself.
So you are not writing about what you know, but writing about an interpretation of what is suggested or implied, or a mere indication of what others experience? You fooled me. Your tone seemed to have such confidence in what you were experiencing.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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Sighclone
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Re: What do you see?

Post by Sighclone » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:33 am

Juniper22 -

You say
Your dualistic, relative reality is what you perceive through the mind. You have been (knowingly or unknowingly) manipulated to perceive this.
Nah...when the brick hits my foot, my mind is elsewhere until the pain hits my brainstem. Then the foot hurts and I can't walk. Very damn little is more obvious to me than that. Without any form of "manipulation" by any internal or outside agency or institution or broadcast network.

Any spiritual teaching which denies out of hand the temporal reality of the senses is bogus. Ramana Maharshi scolded a woman in his audience when she suggested they were both illusions.

* * * * *

The challenge and experience of Self-realization is to recognize that all the dualistic elements of sensory/observable/samsaric reality are a reflection and manifestation of the divine. The relativistic world is fully forever contained within formless Being. Every element of perception and form is infused by Source at every level of time, space and energy. And my foot hurts like hell until it doesn't.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

sevenworlds
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Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:12 am

Re: What do you see?

Post by sevenworlds » Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:25 pm

randomguy wrote:So you are not writing about what you know, but writing about an interpretation of what is suggested or implied, or a mere indication of what others experience? You fooled me. Your tone seemed to have such confidence in what you were experiencing.
Well, that depends how you want to define 'what I know'. Others challenging this expression of how I'm functioning becomes part of my experience. If they tell me it sounds like an "empty existence", that I'm "a mindless zombie" and so on (which have all been thrown my way), that's a reality for them in that moment, and that knowledge is stored in memory and when I come to write a topic like this, it may come out as a form of expression to highlight something.

Juniper22
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Re: What do you see?

Post by Juniper22 » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:50 pm

Hi Andy,
Sighclone wrote: Nah...when the brick hits my foot, my mind is elsewhere until the pain hits my brainstem. Then the foot hurts and I can't walk. Very damn little is more obvious to me than that.


As you wish, there are people I`ve met who would experience no pain in similar circumstances and the brick would break, not the foot. Either ways if your mind was completely present the brick would never hit your foot. But if you want to live in your relative reality box that`s fine.
Without any form of "manipulation" by any internal or outside agency or institution or broadcast network.
I think you`ve been reading too much David Icke. :)
Any spiritual teaching which denies out of hand the temporal reality of the senses is bogus. Ramana Maharshi scolded a woman in his audience when she suggested they were both illusions.
He was right.
And my foot hurts like hell until it doesn't.
Your foot hurts because you know it hurts.
"Don`t think of goodness; don`t think of evil; at this instant, what is your original face?" Hui Neng

Glycine
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:42 pm

Re: What do you see?

Post by Glycine » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:59 pm

Juniper22 wrote:As you wish, there are people I`ve met who would experience no pain in similar circumstances and the brick would break, not the foot. Either ways if your mind was completely present the brick would never hit your foot.
I think the US army, and not only, is looking forward to find such people.
Have you met people who can pass through walls (thick, solid, concrete)?

Juniper22
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:58 pm

Re: What do you see?

Post by Juniper22 » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:21 pm

Glycine wrote: I think the US army, and not only, is looking forward to find such people.
They already have.
Have you met people who can pass through walls (thick, solid, concrete)?
No not yet. :)
"Don`t think of goodness; don`t think of evil; at this instant, what is your original face?" Hui Neng

randomguy
Posts: 962
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:00 am

Re: What do you see?

Post by randomguy » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:02 pm

sevenworlds wrote:Well, that depends how you want to define 'what I know'. Others challenging this expression of how I'm functioning becomes part of my experience. If they tell me it sounds like an "empty existence", that I'm "a mindless zombie" and so on (which have all been thrown my way), that's a reality for them in that moment, and that knowledge is stored in memory and when I come to write a topic like this, it may come out as a form of expression to highlight something.
Okay. But that sort of seems to me like taking echos of other's thoughts and then broadcasting them through a loudspeaker. I understand now that I'm reading you too literally. At least at last I think I comprehend when you have repeatedly stated:
sevenworlds wrote:All the time I am only making statements.
Not 'statements that feel true to my experience'. So, you are OK, you are fine, you're good. Sometimes I had the feeling, "this guy is asking for help...", but that's not the case is it.

Can I ask you this? Do you question your thoughts, or do you feel you have you reached a place where that is not necessary?
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

sevenworlds
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:12 am

Re: What do you see?

Post by sevenworlds » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:43 pm

randomguy wrote:Can I ask you this? Do you question your thoughts, or do you feel you have you reached a place where that is not necessary?
I don't know anymore. I don't even have that certainty of what a thought is anymore. It's all one. All we know about thought and mind is itself thought and mind. That is the trap I am aiming to point out in different ways. There was a time when I was questioning everything but it starts to feel 'unnatural', like effort is still there. Then it dawns on you: what is it that is questioning the thoughts? You realise thought has split itself in two - observer and observed - and this game can on for years and years in some. I don't know how that is eventually recognised - there was no technique or method, nothing I did to make it happen - but some inner drive has to be there that somehow carries you past that until you don't know what's left. You could say a certain courage has to be there, because you are literally losing all you know.

randomguy
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Re: What do you see?

Post by randomguy » Thu Apr 16, 2009 6:59 pm

sevenworlds wrote:
randomguy wrote:Can I ask you this? Do you question your thoughts, or do you feel you have you reached a place where that is not necessary?
I don't know anymore. I don't even have that certainty of what a thought is anymore. It's all one. All we know about thought and mind is itself thought and mind. That is the trap I am aiming to point out in different ways. There was a time when I was questioning everything but it starts to feel 'unnatural', like effort is still there. Then it dawns on you: what is it that is questioning the thoughts? You realise thought has split itself in two - observer and observed - and this game can on for years and years in some. I don't know how that is eventually recognised - there was no technique or method, nothing I did to make it happen - but some inner drive has to be there that somehow carries you past that until you don't know what's left. You could say a certain courage has to be there, because you are literally losing all you know.
I don't know either. My hunch is some issues are simple semantics. For example, how is this? It questioning it. The world questioning the world. One questioning one. Separation may just be a concept to be used temporarily to recognize habitual dependence on believing thought. After that maybe it can be tossed like a rusty shovel.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

lucy
Posts: 306
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:09 pm

Re: What do you see?

Post by lucy » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:37 pm

Or as Buddha said "Once you cross to the other shore, you no longer need the raft".

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