Whether you do or you don't...

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sevenworlds
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Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Thu Apr 23, 2009 5:34 pm

...makes no difference. This is the trap we are pulled into by society. You have those who believe life is meaningful on one side of the fence and those who believe it's pointless on the other. They like to see themselves as different but both are in exactly the same boat. It's natural in this society to start off with the idea there is a meaning to your life. It is all the time encouraged. When your attempts at convincing yourself this is true fail enough times you then jump to the pointless, meaningless, cynical side.

Every action is essentially the same. For example, take exercise or eating healthily. Whether you exercise and eat healthy foods or not makes little difference. We like to believe that it is our keeping fit and eating well that has us in better health or makes us live longer but in truth, there is no way of knowing. Plenty people who are incredibly fit with healthy diets die young or fall ill with diseases. Once the belief snowballs, the society creates jobs out of it. Fitness instructors, nutritionists, dieticians, doctors, etc. These jobs then strengthen the belief further.

This is how all our jobs are created in society. They are there out of the demands of our beliefs. Naturally, the job then strengthens the belief of the one doing the job. They want desperately to believe there life has a purpose and meaning and are not honest enough to examine what they are doing and why they are doing it. To maintain this lie to themselves they must constantly convince others that what they are doing has meaning. And so the whole thing goes round and round.

I'm not pointing the finger at anyone, it is as it is. There is no way out. You must do a job of some kind to remain part of society, to survive. When enough people see this clearly and see it for what it is, it will naturally crumble.

karmarider
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by karmarider » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:09 pm

Yes, it's all the same. Yes, society, like all institutions, will crumble. Historically, it has been replaced by more of the same. What's interesting is, when we realize this, and we chase spirituality or religion or awakening or Tolle, it's still all the same.

The only thing different is the full experience of the present.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:29 pm

A guy looks at the live images of himself and everything else on an infinite virtual reality device, and states "That is reality of living in illusion" and another guy besides him states "the recognition of this illusion makes you live in present" :lol:

If one understands "This does not cause that", or logic and reason is also not entirely true. One finds oneself looses words in giving reason on how society or reality works. What one observes is not what is. :mrgreen:

One at the end must surrender personal experiences and understandings -- Committing conscious suicide, not committing suicide to become unconscious. :shock:

Glycine
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Glycine » Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:35 pm

I think you are somewhat wrong, sevenworlds.
You are applying population statistical concepts to individuals.
For example: exercise, eating, and doctors may or may not help a certain individual, but when consistently applied to a large population - there will be a significant difference for the population as a whole.

A simple example would be that of radioactive decay: let's say a vessel contains a large number of radioactive nuclei. Some of those nuclei will decay in the next hour, but there's no way of predicting which ones. However, the number of nuclei that will decay can be predicted very precisely - although this is of little "consolation" for a particular nucleus.

So, society may not help a particular individual with a particular need, but it seems to help communities - and a lot of people are happy about it!

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:01 pm

Glycine wrote:I think you are somewhat wrong, sevenworlds.
You are applying population statistical concepts to individuals.
For example: exercise, eating, and doctors may or may not help a certain individual, but when consistently applied to a large population - there will be a significant difference for the population as a whole.

A simple example would be that of radioactive decay: let's say a vessel contains a large number of radioactive nuclei. Some of those nuclei will decay in the next hour, but there's no way of predicting which ones. However, the number of nuclei that will decay can be predicted very precisely - although this is of little "consolation" for a particular nucleus.

So, society may not help a particular individual with a particular need, but it seems to help communities - and a lot of people are happy about it!
Using the knife of intellect cut through silk webs spun by intellectualism :twisted:

Juniper22
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Juniper22 » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:58 am

Glycine wrote:I think you are somewhat wrong, sevenworlds.
You are applying population statistical concepts to individuals.
Are you sure that`s what he`s getting at Glycine?
For example: exercise, eating, and doctors may or may not help a certain individual, but when consistently applied to a large population - there will be a significant difference for the population as a whole.
More of this relative reality dualism which Sighclone mentioned recently. If you criticize it you`re put in the non-dualist camp.

To me, viewing someone as a dualist (or non-dualist) is no different to labels like atheist/believer in god. A non-dualist is still attaching themselves to dualism as an atheist is to god, it`s just two sides of the same coin. "I am who am" - after this we`re just creating boxes... "little boxes and they all look just the same" (as the song goes).
Last edited by Juniper22 on Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Don`t think of goodness; don`t think of evil; at this instant, what is your original face?" Hui Neng

mmy
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by mmy » Fri Apr 24, 2009 5:57 am

Hi sevenworlds,
sevenworlds wrote:You must do a job of some kind to remain part of society, to survive.
I enjoy my job but I’m not attached to it nor do I seek identity through it. Life remains whether I have a job or not but my reality right now is work, I accept that and enjoy it for what it is.
sevenworlds wrote:When enough people see this clearly and see it for what it is, it will naturally crumble.
I’m curious as to how you see this - society crumbling? Illusions/beliefs around meaning or not meaningful could collapse? I think that would be quite the breakthrough. :)

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:47 pm

I'm not suggesting people leave their jobs. Those who quit their jobs in rebellion against the system are still trapped in that framework. This is why I say there is no way out of it. We must keep working but as long we do we are strengthening the beliefs that maintain society.

You see, a doctor is not really interested in the human body. Perhaps at school - out of the subjects enforced upon him - he develops an interest in biology or something. He doesn't really know what that is. He is just fed information and is good at or develops an interest in retaining that information. Later when it comes time to pick a career, he has to look back at this and weigh up what is best for him in terms of his chances of being somebody or doing something worthwhile in society. If he becomes a doctor, all he is doing is repeating information taught to him along the way. In reality he knows nothing about how the body works or even what the body is. Yet his status as a doctor has put him in a very powerful position in society and in doing that, has disempowered all the people who now look to him to solve the problems of THEIR body. The bottom line is it is a way to make a living.

All our jobs are abstractions like that. A restaurant wouldn't work if people didn't believe that sitting in an atmospheric room with strangers, having everything fetched for you and cooked for you wasn't pleasurable. It takes many beliefs to get to that one so the whole thing is belief upon belief. These beliefs desensitize the body and so we lose sight of the fact the body is not interested in whether we do these things or not.
mmy wrote:I’m curious as to how you see this - society crumbling? Illusions/beliefs around meaning or not meaningful could collapse? I think that would be quite the breakthrough. :)
Yes, when it's seen totally by enough people - that it actually doesn't matter what we do, whether life is meaningful or meaningless - these things will surely fall. When people become more sensitive to their own bodies by losing attachment to them, their reliance on pharmaceutical medication will diminish and doctors will be in danger. When it's realised that food is only energy for the body and not a pleasure activity, that puts the whole food industry in danger. Each section of society as we know it will be in jeopardy once enough people see that it is in society's interest to keep us believing that whether we do or don't IS important and that we as individuals are imprisoning ourselves by doing the very jobs that maintain this idea.

Glycine
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Glycine » Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:46 pm

sevenworlds wrote:If he becomes a doctor, all he is doing is repeating information taught to him along the way. In reality he knows nothing about how the body works or even what the body is.
You are good with words, 7w, but you may be taking it too far.
Your discussion about doctors suggests that the practice of medicine did not change at all for the last few thousand years.
The fact is that society and rules keep changing at all levels - so, obviously, most people do not blindly repeat what they've been taught. Maybe there is a "background awakening" after all.

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:29 pm

Glycine wrote:Your discussion about doctors suggests that the practice of medicine did not change at all for the last few thousand years.
The fact is that society and rules keep changing at all levels - so, obviously, most people do not blindly repeat what they've been taught. Maybe there is a "background awakening" after all.
The changes are all only to keep the mind satisfied. That is the illusion - that we're going somewhere because things have changed. If you stop and honestly examine it, has anything really changed? The demand for knowledge creates more knowledge but it is always coming out of the past. All we ever do is look at the past and add to it or make adjustments.

Some guy at some point declares "this is a brain" and it's responsible for A, B and C. From that assumption, further jokers come along and add knowledge to that and adjust the knowledge along the way. If they stray completely off that path they are out of a job. So it always comes back to making a living.

There is this tv show that has been on in the UK recently, How To Grow Your Own Drugs. This guy is showing us how we can pick commonly available plants around us and in our kitchen turn them into natural medicines. We were probably doing this thousands of years ago, only to be convinced over centuries that pharmaceuticals were the answer. Now they make tv shows encouraging us to go back to nature. Is that progress? :lol:

Glycine
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Glycine » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:14 pm

sevenworlds wrote:The changes are all only to keep the mind satisfied. That is the illusion - that we're going somewhere because things have changed.
Actually, the mind is never satisfied. We may not be going anywhere, but we are doing "something".

Side note: Medicinal plants can be more dangerous than drugs from pharmaceutical companies. These medicinal plants evolved to kill the animals that consumed them, as a defense mechanism. And I don't think we'll give up surgery and gene therapy in favor of completely going back to plants. Nevertheless, various plants have their role in "in house medicine".

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Fri Apr 24, 2009 4:42 pm

Glycine wrote:Actually, the mind is never satisfied.
Exactly. Which is why these things have constantly changed but never provided solutions. None of them want solutions. The doctors and scientists don't want to fully understand the body. If they could cure all diseases they would be out of a job. Instead, their interest is to continually invent new diseases and treatements for those diseases.

Alternative medicine is no different. I wasn't indicating I was for it. I just find it amusing and telling that the same mind as above returns to nature and then creates a new industry and tv shows when it loses interest in conventional medicine. Yet we call this progress.

lucy
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by lucy » Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:30 pm

I think what 7worlds is saying is what Albert Einstein said "We cannot solve problems using the same level of conscousness that created them"

There has to be a massive shift (awakening) for things to really change.

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:55 pm

It's a pity Einstein never adhered to that statement. His problem-solving led to the atomic bomb.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:34 pm

sevenworlds wrote:
Glycine wrote:Actually, the mind is never satisfied.
Exactly. Which is why these things have constantly changed but never provided solutions. None of them want solutions. The doctors and scientists don't want to fully understand the body. If they could cure all diseases they would be out of a job. Instead, their interest is to continually invent new diseases and treatements for those diseases.

Alternative medicine is no different. I wasn't indicating I was for it. I just find it amusing and telling that the same mind as above returns to nature and then creates a new industry and tv shows when it loses interest in conventional medicine. Yet we call this progress.
The reality appears to be like this if one is trapped in the field of thoughts or intellect. Mind has to realize that it is never the body, the emotion, and etc. Whatever knowledge and understanding mind has on anything is only an approximation. Mind needs to give up its dominance.

Incidentally, some approximations of the mind is closer to Reality than others. For example 3.1415926 is closer to pi than 3.14. However, one can always say both of them are not pi; therefore, neither is real.

Another perspective is: 3.14 is an under approximation of pi, 3.15 is an over approximation. Alternatively approximating pi with closer and closer over and under approximations, one may accidentally land on pi. However, one often gives up such approximation long before the accidental landing because the mind constantly seeks for short-cut, or approximation which is simpler.

Recognition of all the tricks of the mind enables one to transcend it. One's mind is not an obstacle to awakening, the unwillingness to master one's mind is. Many times, one may get some and think one has got all. That is also a trick of the mind. It constantly makes short-cut.

The mind is an infinite super-computer. It does not possesses true will of its own; however, it has the infinite approximation of true will. Only true will which is from one's being can overcome the approximation.

The progress mentioned by sevenworlds is the over and under approximation trick of the mind. The society is naturally doing the tricks of mind due to the dominance of the mind. The crumbling of the society comes only when the mind dominance is gone.

Mankind is not able to walk out from the cradle of the mind yet, and this may take long and long and long time. However, individual human being may be and have been able to do so.

The cradle perspective seems to be: "Whether you do or you don't makes no difference." Why not take the time to have fun with the cradle, to make a friend out of it, and to play all the tricks it can play :lol:

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