Whether you do or you don't...

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sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:33 pm

Mind is not a problem (if there even is a mind?), but it becomes a problem when it makes statements like this in service of itself:
Tony-S-Ma wrote:Why not take the time to have fun with the cradle, to make a friend out of it, and to play all the tricks it can play :lol:

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:17 pm

sevenworlds wrote:Mind is not a problem (if there even is a mind?), but it becomes a problem when it makes statements like this in service of itself:
Tony-S-Ma wrote:Why not take the time to have fun with the cradle, to make a friend out of it, and to play all the tricks it can play :lol:
Aha, the problem is the problem itself trick, the thoughts are the problem trick, selfish is the problem trick. Triple approximations.

"Cause and effect" is only an approximation to what is. This trick will knock many mind tricks off balance. When one stops attributing what one is focusing on to a single or multiple causes, there is some kind of relief.

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:19 pm

Tony, I always find your posts difficult to read and overly intellectual, so I'll put it this way...

If you tell everyone, it's fine, enjoy the mind, play with all it's tricks, then that is what most are already doing. I don't see anything wrong with that. Those who are engrossed in the game, let them play.

'You' are always comforted by these kinds of statements. That's what everyone around you is always encouraging - 'you' to enjoy your life. Still you can't and so you possibly end up here. I am simply pointing out how many of the things we take for granted, and many of them are seen as pleasures, are actually causing this misery, if you look at why and what you are doing them for. If you see clearly what is behind it all, these things will fall into their natural place. It doesn't mean you live in a void where everything is empty and devoid of meaning.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:30 pm

sevenworlds wrote:Tony, I always find your posts difficult to read and overly intellectual, so I'll put it this way...

If you tell everyone, it's fine, enjoy the mind, play with all it's tricks, then that is what most are already doing. I don't see anything wrong with that. Those who are engrossed in the game, let them play.

'You' are always comforted by these kinds of statements. That's what everyone around you is always encouraging - 'you' to enjoy your life. Still you can't and so you possibly end up here. I am simply pointing out how many of the things we take for granted, and many of them are seen as pleasures, are actually causing this misery, if you look at why and what you are doing them for. If you see clearly what is behind it all, these things will fall into their natural place. It doesn't mean you live in a void where everything is empty and devoid of meaning.
My friend, majority have been trapped in only a few tricks of the mind, and been enslaved in certain sense by the mind. Perceptively, there are two ways out: mastering the mind, or simply refusing to play with it. Most seekers are hoping between the two and eventually recognizing the two are the same -- there is only one way out and the mind is using the trick of splitting. As long as the separation is there, the slavery continues.

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:20 am

The division is between what people think/say and what they do. Therefore whether you do or don't, with anything, is not the problem. The action is always real. The conflict is caused by acting one way and thinking you should be acting another. The society (which is just a larger version of the individual), is always undermining our actions. One week they tell you this causes cancer, another week it's something else. So we're never sure what to eat. They tell us we need to exercise but we don't always feel like it. There is a conflict there. They tell us education (intellect) is the key to everything. Not everyone can be intellectual so there is a conflict there. On and on it goes. You can't blame the society because the society is YOU. You have to see how your job, your relationships, your interests, all areas of your life are contributing to this society. Nobody can predict how an individual will respond if that is seen clearly. You might walk away from the whole lot, you might not. Most never find out because it's too scary to pull back the curtains. Instead it's easier to say 'I accept' all the time. It just becomes an empty statement. To encourage people to master the mind and enjoy it's fruits too often encourages the 'I accept' mentality which is so easy to hide behind.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:24 am

sevenworlds wrote:The division is between what people think/say and what they do. Therefore whether you do or don't, with anything, is not the problem. The action is always real. The conflict is caused by acting one way and thinking you should be acting another. The society (which is just a larger version of the individual), is always undermining our actions. One week they tell you this causes cancer, another week it's something else. So we're never sure what to eat. They tell us we need to exercise but we don't always feel like it. There is a conflict there. They tell us education (intellect) is the key to everything. Not everyone can be intellectual so there is a conflict there. On and on it goes. You can't blame the society because the society is YOU. You have to see how your job, your relationships, your interests, all areas of your life are contributing to this society. Nobody can predict how an individual will respond if that is seen clearly. You might walk away from the whole lot, you might not. Most never find out because it's too scary to pull back the curtains. Instead it's easier to say 'I accept' all the time. It just becomes an empty statement. To encourage people to master the mind and enjoy it's fruits too often encourages the 'I accept' mentality which is so easy to hide behind.
G.I. Gurjieff stated a person with the conflict you are describing as a person without true individuality. Certainly society seems to reflect this because it net results of many individuals with such conflict. So he called upon his followers to develop true individuality to be liberated from the societal brainwash.

Some individuals who sees your way do walk out from the whole lot. U.G. Krishnamurti was an example. One can clearly sense that U.G. did not have the conflict you are describing when one watches the video of him. However, there are others who see the same phenomenon with a more positive explanation: everything is done for us, and our mind somehow falsely thinks it is in control. As long as one recognizes the mind's false control, one can live spontaneously. Jac O'keeffe is such an example. One can clearly sense that she does not have the conflict you are describing.

A person without the conflict you are describing is a liberated person and lives as s/he is. Only very very very very very few are such liberated individuals; therefore, the society is not going to crumble for long long long time. Personally, I think the society will go through a transformation when a critical mess of individuals become liberated from that conflict.

Incidentally, understanding the conflict you are describing does not liberate one from the conflict. Somehow, a person is put through a transformation of sort in order to live as s/he is.

One can either say the transformation is due to Grace of Self (Jac O'keefe) , or an accident of Nature (U.G. Krishnamurti). However, these are just theories until one experiences the total transformation.

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:00 pm

I would say all who are truly liberated lie outside the framework of society. It doesn't matter whether they express it that way. Some demonstrate it very clearly, such as UG Krishnamurti, who is very vocal in pointing out the flaws of society. Just because others don't express it so vehemently, does not mean they aren't aware of it. Even Eckhart Tolle withdrew from a degree, lived almost like a hermit (his words) for many years, and even now claims he spends a great deal of time alone, not taking part in society the way the rest of us are.

The onlooker only sees the words and actions. So if one teacher stays with his family and keeps his job it looks like he is still in society to the onlooker. The teacher is not remaining with family and job for the reasons the onlooker believes. In fact, there are no reasons to it from his point of view. The life energy has simply not urged him to move anywhere and so he remains as he is. The onlooker likes to put their own interpretation over that. "He is staying with his family out of love", "he is carrying on his job out of duty to society". Then the onlooker will naturally align themselves with that teacher over the teacher who has walked out on everything because it is comforting. The onlooker doesn't know what is behind it all.

I agree that understanding the conflict I'm describing does not liberate one from it but it is evident from my time here that many aren't even understanding it. It's not a thing to be understood. It's to be seen. Not intellectually seeing, but a seeing that just happens. Where it totally dawns on you and ultimately finishes 'you'. If it is seen truly, it has to finish 'you' and you will never be the same again.

To say "the society is not going to crumble for a long long long time" is the same as delaying what we call a personal transformation. As long as we see it in terms of me and billions of people, we can delay. At the end of the day it doesn't matter, all that matters is are YOU able to see totally right now how you are the society? Are you prepared to give up that society, if it comes to that, for liberation? That's what I'm trying to get at. You can go on forever picking out the nice phrases Eckhart or someone else uses, but could you drop your high-flying career or your friends, if you saw how they were creating conflict in you?

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:20 pm

I agree that understanding the conflict I'm describing does not liberate one from it but it is evident from my time here that many aren't even understanding it. It's not a thing to be understood. It's to be seen. Not intellectually seeing, but a seeing that just happens. Where it totally dawns on you and ultimately finishes 'you'. If it is seen truly, it has to finish 'you' and you will never be the same again.
Understanding is not totally intellectual. It is true knowledge from life experiences. I am very sure that you, sevenworlds, have not yet experienced the total transformation. The transformation is not through one seeing truly, and the transformation follows its own accords. The dawning of such knowledge is Life expresses Itself or transformation runs its own course.

In fact, death is a manifestation of such transformation; however, experiencing death consciously with lively body is very rare happening. Many liberated Teachers work very hard to remove fear of death from the seekers. In essence, that fear is the fear of the transformation. It is human being's evolutionary heritage of animalistic survival. Human as a form expressing Life has the potential to experience death with a living body.

Whether human beings will be en mass transformed is only an intellectual speculation. Of course, following the flock mentality would love it to be true.

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:01 am

Tony-S-Ma wrote:Understanding is not totally intellectual. It is true knowledge from life experiences.
Of course it's not intellectual. That's what I'm saying.
Tony-S-Ma wrote:I am very sure that you, sevenworlds, have not yet experienced the total transformation.
I don't ask you or anyone else to believe otherwise.
Tony-S-Ma wrote:Whether human beings will be en mass transformed is only an intellectual speculation. Of course, following the flock mentality would love it to be true.
I don't say humanity will or should be transformed. It seems unlikely to me. All I'm doing is highlighting the link between the society and the individual. Whether others see it and what happens as a result is none of my business.

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:12 am

sevenworlds wrote:
I don't say humanity will or should be transformed. It seems unlikely to me. All I'm doing is highlighting the link between the society and the individual. Whether others see it and what happens as a result is none of my business.
My friend, you are highlighting what you perceive to be the link between the society and the individual. Many others may perceive it differently. Or in the jargon of spirituality, you are using your own pointer to point something which others may point with different pointers.

My friend, you cannot escape from your personal Karma. You are fully responsible for all your true intentions. The Universe records everything. Eventually one realizes that one is one's own judge and jury for what one chooses to experience. When one is liberated, experiencing, judging, and trial happen simultaneously.

In a silly way, everything happens to you is none of your mind's, body's and emotion's business, but it is the business of what you are.

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by eagle2phoenix » Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:18 am

A conversation between 7worlds and TonySMa. To be or not to be, that is the question.
Life is fascinating. Nature is beautiful. Live life with nature.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:00 am

eagle2phoenix wrote:A conversation between 7worlds and TonySMa. To be or not to be, that is the question.
What one is may choose not to be ONE with God. This to be or not to be is none of one's mind's business.

Juniper22
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Juniper22 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:54 am

Tony-S-Ma wrote: What one is may choose not to be ONE with God. This to be or not to be is none of one's mind's business.
Is English your first language Tony?
"Don`t think of goodness; don`t think of evil; at this instant, what is your original face?" Hui Neng

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RCharles
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by RCharles » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:26 am

It's all about joy. Life is about enjoying life, Consciousness enjoying playing hide and seek with itself. Whatever you do, whether building conventional empires or living simply and anonymously as a hermit in the desert, learn to enjoy it all. Take it seriously enough to enjoy it but not so seriously that the joy goes away. Life is a very beautiful thing, and we are privileged to be conscious of it. Cynicism just spoils the joy, so why indulge in it? That's just another mind game. Let it go. Just participate in whatever life brings you, be at peace with it, and enjoy it.

Remember Eckhart's three levels: acceptance, enjoyment, and enthusiasm. I don't see cynicism or nihilism anywhere in the list. It's all joy.

Charles
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:08 am

Juniper22 wrote:
Tony-S-Ma wrote: What one is may choose not to be ONE with God. This to be or not to be is none of one's mind's business.
Is English your first language Tony?
No.

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