Whether you do or you don't...

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Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:12 am

RCharles wrote:It's all about joy. Life is about enjoying life, Consciousness enjoying playing hide and seek with itself. Whatever you do, whether building conventional empires or living simply and anonymously as a hermit in the desert, learn to enjoy it all. Take it seriously enough to enjoy it but not so seriously that the joy goes away. Life is a very beautiful thing, and we are privileged to be conscious of it. Cynicism just spoils the joy, so why indulge in it? That's just another mind game. Let it go. Just participate in whatever life brings you, be at peace with it, and enjoy it.

Remember Eckhart's three levels: acceptance, enjoyment, and enthusiasm. I don't see cynicism or nihilism anywhere in the list. It's all joy.

Charles
It is always nicer (or better) to approach everything positively.

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:46 pm

Tony-S-Ma wrote:My friend, you are highlighting what you perceive to be the link between the society and the individual. Many others may perceive it differently. Or in the jargon of spirituality, you are using your own pointer to point something which others may point with different pointers.
Think about what you're saying there. Is that not a ridiculous thing to say? Everyone who has ever spoken about this or written books about it is using their own pointers to point. That's why I keep emphasising they are all liars and I am too. If we accept that, then what's the problem? If an individual really sees something in what I am saying, it becomes theirs, nothing to do with me. If you don't like what I am saying, you are free to disagree, but I find it very telling that rather than simply disagree, you seem to have a problem with me having an expression at all because it doesn't fit your ideas.
Tony-S-Ma wrote:My friend, you cannot escape from your personal Karma. You are fully responsible for all your true intentions. The Universe records everything. Eventually one realizes that one is one's own judge and jury for what one chooses to experience. When one is liberated, experiencing, judging, and trial happen simultaneously.
Ok, if you wish to believe that is so, good luck.
Tony-S-Ma wrote:It is always nicer (or better) to approach everything positively.
Why?

This seems to be what it comes down to. Expression is fine as long as its 'positive'. What exactly that means I'm not sure. I've got to throw the word 'love' in a bit more? Talk about compassion? Stop being 'negative' about society? It is your wanting everything to be dressed up positively that is blinding you from seeing the whole picture.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:08 pm

sevenworlds wrote:
Tony-S-Ma wrote:My friend, you are highlighting what you perceive to be the link between the society and the individual. Many others may perceive it differently. Or in the jargon of spirituality, you are using your own pointer to point something which others may point with different pointers.
Think about what you're saying there. Is that not a ridiculous thing to say? Everyone who has ever spoken about this or written books about it is using their own pointers to point. That's why I keep emphasising they are all liars and I am too. If we accept that, then what's the problem? If an individual really sees something in what I am saying, it becomes theirs, nothing to do with me. If you don't like what I am saying, you are free to disagree, but I find it very telling that rather than simply disagree, you seem to have a problem with me having an expression at all because it doesn't fit your ideas.
Yes, when you are conscious of your mind consciousness, you notice the illusion. Noticing the illusion and transcending it are not the same. Transcending it makes one more conscious than merely noticing it and pointing out it to others.
sevenworlds wrote:
Tony-S-Ma wrote:My friend, you cannot escape from your personal Karma. You are fully responsible for all your true intentions. The Universe records everything. Eventually one realizes that one is one's own judge and jury for what one chooses to experience. When one is liberated, experiencing, judging, and trial happen simultaneously.
Ok, if you wish to believe that is so, good luck.
Believing and realizing are totally different. Luck can never be realized. No happening in the Universe is accidental.

sevenworlds wrote:
Tony-S-Ma wrote:It is always nicer (or better) to approach everything positively.

Why?

This seems to be what it comes down to. Expression is fine as long as its 'positive'. What exactly that means I'm not sure. I've got to throw the word 'love' in a bit more? Talk about compassion? Stop being 'negative' about society? It is your wanting everything to be dressed up positively that is blinding you from seeing the whole picture.


Again, positiveness, love, compassion and etc. are pointers to something which can be realized. In the reality of mind, especially the at (0,1)binary level, preference is totally artificial. Does a computer know Positiveness in the sense we are discussing here? Does a computer know love and compassion? Of course not. Can we use a computer to dress up our expressions positively? Definitely! Does the computer know the difference? No. However, deep down inside you, you know the difference.

There is no opposite to the Positiveness we are discussing here. Negativeness is merely the absence of Positiveness. The appearance of your negativity is only a symptom of your own mental realization of Positiveness. It has nothing to do with Positiveness Itself.

The classic analogy: Darkness is not the opposite of light. It is merely the absence of light.

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mistral
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by mistral » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:19 pm

I have a wonderful friend who wrote some amazing most honest and truly helpful books. I have posted his work many times here, but I need to mention him, as I think he explains all of this so well....I would give writing on this 'do or don't stuff' a try myself, but I think William's words cannot be topped.

His name is William Samuel and you can read more of his stuff at his website.... He passed away a long time back, but his work remains timelessly enlightening.

So, here are few a things from him that seem to fit this thread

"Show me a true vision of heaven and I'll show you a
descent into hell wherein that vision was tried, tested and found faithful."


" Finding and living the Truth is not a lifting up to the Light at all. It is much more a rapid stripping away of the mortal shell, leaving the Real exposed. It is an uncovering of the Light of Identity which has been here as 'us' all the while. It is the return of sensitivity in all its aspects. It is the CHILD uncovered again, stripped of all intellectual veneers. its worldly vestures ripped away. Without doubt this work appears to uncover the Child we are and we stand naked, exposed, defenceless, hypersensitive, our perception extremely acute again."

The "final days" (and this is all that is significantly meant by those ominous words) is the arrival of the world's final enlightenment. These days are in progress already. The light is dawning because it is already here. New ideas are coming into focus and old landmarks are passing away. Cherished notions, some the very pillars of society, are being shaken to the roots. We are finding most of them built on sand.

Many institutions charged with the revelation of God, Truth, Reality, are found not to be giving freedom to their charges but withholding it; not dispensing Light, but darkness; not unbinding men, but shackling them; not seeking out the new Rays of Light and investigating them impartially, but, for conscious or unconscious reason of self-preservation, doing everything in their power to keep new Light from being seen--for fear, say they, their present Light will be adulterated. As if the Truth needed protection!

Oh, but let it be understood, these very institutions are a blessing and they are serving a most necessary purpose.

How could we know that Identity is Omniscience itself without first attempting to place that omniscience "out there" in a bible or institution or philosophy?

How would we learn beyond all doubt that Light itself is being our Identity without first living the futility and impossibility of a weary traveler trying to reach the Light?

So now, to make this statement from still another direction: We come to see the Light which reveals that we are the Light. I have found that acting this Identity "on faith" first helped disclose the Light-I-am that removes every doubt. And this Light of Self-discovery blooms in illumination and insight--fragile, fragrant, and flowery display of beauty and love divine. Sparks! Enthusiasm! Zest! Strength and youth flooding back! The bloom of Light Divine--the simple Love that is Identity, revealed. (Excerpt From The Awareness of Self-Discovery
By William Samuel)

-------- Woodsong Notes 1984 by William Samuel (excerpt):

http://www.williamsamuel.com/12-08-2001-jn.htm
Furthermore (listen) we are not disinterested in the comings and goings of the images either. Appearances are NOT to be ignored. We are directly involved in apprehending them correctly - not manipulating nor changing them. The final discipline involves the correct apprehension of IDENTITY and passing that clear perception along to our world as quickly as we can. THIS is the portion of "the discipline" metaphysicians appear to know so little about. (The whole of this is for a book.)

The "divine Discipline" is not something ELSE to be added to our busy affairs. It is happening already, albeit unrecognized for what it is and does. To perceive the Discipline's PURPOSE puts everything into a new light. Therefore, "what the real discipline is" is worthy of our earnest contemplation.

Listen. Every time the Truth enters our affairs, it comes to EXPLAIN something, doesn't it? That is, each time the "Glimpse" arrives, it throws new Light on a matter that was seen only partially before. Something is seen in a new Light and more nearly understood. Clarified. Simplified. Isn't this so? --------

--------- Contrary to belief, we don't have to choose between ten thousand possible disciplines in order to be about the REAL discipline. We are already LIVING it. Listen: the "belief and dream of Life in matter" is ITSELF the activity the ancients called the Divine Discipline. We are not only (apparently) living it - or dreaming it, if you prefer - we can't escape living it until we've done what it demands. Among those demands is to awaken to and ACCEPT the rightful Identity.

Whether we like it or not, or say it is real or not, a dream or not, an illusion or not - we've EVERYONE been saddled with the Discipline (the BELIEF of life in matter) with which we wrestle and writhe as it shapes and molds our willingness to ACCEPT the Divine Identity-Awareness (Life). That Life (we discover line upon line, precept upon precept) is NOT encumbered nor bound to a bucket of blood and a sack in space led around by its nose, beholden to false prophets and false appetites.

The poetic justice of it all! No one can ignore The Real Discipline. It can't be escaped. Everyone is living it whether he likes it or not. The Discipline is impartial. "Everyone" faces the taskmaster - saint and "sinner."

If you want to read the whole essay on this Divine Discipline you can find it here: http://www.williamsamuel.com/12-08-2001-jn.htm


You can get his books at Amazon or from his website.

Good stuff on this thread, Sevenworlds, I always resonate with your 'glimmers of light'... thanks, Mistral

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RCharles
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by RCharles » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:12 pm

Dear Sevenworlds,

You're falling into an ego trap. At the visible, personal level you are perceiving that life has no meaning and society is a sham. The trap is in your disappointment, your angry rejection of that reality. Such a view isn't necessarily wrong (or right), but it creates suffering for yourself and others. You had a world view that included meaning, you discovered that it wasn't true, and now you're disappointed with reality. Your ego is disappointed.

Remember that Eckhart says the way out of suffering is acceptance of whatever life brings. And beyond acceptance is joy, and beyond joy, enthusiasm. Putting it in Byron Katie's terms, you stop suffering when you accept what is. If you fight against the reality of what is, you lose, but only 100% of the time. :)

So what's the way out again? Just accept what is. Leave your disappointment behind. Recognize that your true nature is peace and find the things in reality that give you joy and enthusiasm. You can choose to have a disappointed ego instead, if you prefer, but you will suffer. Since you have the freedom in a meaningless reality to choose, why not choose peace? Why not joy? Why not enthusiasm?

And by the way, I listened to some of your songs online and *loved* them! You clearly have joy and enthusiasm for music or you couldn't produce such great stuff! :D

Charles
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:18 am

RCharles wrote:Dear Sevenworlds,

You're falling into an ego trap. At the visible, personal level you are perceiving that life has no meaning and society is a sham. The trap is in your disappointment, your angry rejection of that reality.
Ahhh dear... I wonder if anyone will ever get this! :lol:

Charles, I appreciate your concern but I'm not troubled by life or society. I do not perceive life having no meaning. That does not mean I perceive it having meaning either. Both are gone for me. I am actually never angry when I post on here. The anger is perceived by you because you are interpreting my words using the knowledge society has given you. It's a reflex of the past. You have heard others say some of the things I am saying and so immediately your mind brings in this image of an angry, cynical, suffering person. You have to read what I am saying now, with no images or interpretations from the past clouding what is actually being said to 'get it'.
RCharles wrote:And by the way, I listened to some of your songs online and *loved* them! You clearly have joy and enthusiasm for music or you couldn't produce such great stuff! :D
Thank you :) I do enjoy things in this world but not the way you might imagine. For 10 years I was obsessed with music. I loved it so much and wanted to do something with it, to achieve or reach somewhere, believing it would make me happy. That want burnt itself out and now when I pick up the guitar or sing, I enjoy it. The moment I stop, it is gone, as if it never happened. Then onto the next scene. That way nothing in this world can fool me into dragging out pleasure and ending up with pain.

Juniper22
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Juniper22 » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:53 am

Tony I wasn`t being cynical when I asked you if English was your first language. You have a strong vocabulary, but your expression to me suggests you think you know what you`re talking about.
Tony S-Ma - My friend, you cannot escape from your personal Karma.....The Universe records everything.


Do you know what karma is? Forget what you`ve read in books, do you know from direct experience what you`re talking about.
Eventually one realizes that one is one's own judge and jury for what one chooses to experience. When one is liberated, experiencing, judging, and trial happen simultaneously.
This reads like second-hand information, what you`ve been told or read from books. When you begin to awaken you start to realize you know nothing about anything. All these fancy concepts literally go out the window.

You stop identifying with labels/static names/the outer coating. Until you quit analyzing what the masters say and look to where they`re pointing, then you`ll stay talking in the outer shell. Words alone are empty/lifeless, but when you go to that deeper place the words become a bridge/gateway from that place (religious dogma creates barriers instead of the former).
"Don`t think of goodness; don`t think of evil; at this instant, what is your original face?" Hui Neng

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RCharles
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by RCharles » Wed Apr 29, 2009 7:52 am

Hi Sevenworlds,

You said,
You have heard others say some of the things I am saying and so immediately your mind brings in this image of an angry, cynical, suffering person. You have to read what I am saying now, with no images or interpretations from the past clouding what is actually being said to 'get it'.
You're right. I can never get your state of mind because I'm not in your head. What I hear has to be interpreted through my mind, and to me it sounds like a sort of apathy or nihilism in which everything has no real meaning and it's all a phony facade, so why put up with it? Again, I may hot have that right, but if I'm even close, it 's a subtle or maybe not so subtle rejection of reality. And actually, your reply to Tony really did sound fairly angry.

But I'm going to stop guessing about your mindset because it's not fair to you, and it is becoming a mind game for me. The point is acceptance leads to peace, which is by nature uplifting. That's a vital and essential part of Eckhart's message. Whatever mindset leads to dwelling on the inherent meaninglessness of things is not peace. The peace Eckhart speaks of leads to joyful embracing of reality because it is us, we are it, and we naturally love ourselves, or maybe a better, more non-attached phrasing is to say we have compassion on ourselves. No matter how you say it, it is positive in nature.

It's a good discussion, but I'm going to let this topic go and just wish you peace and well-being before I get too ego-involved. (Probably too late.) :)

Namaste and peace be with you, Seven.

Charles
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:48 am

Juniper22 wrote:Tony I wasn`t being cynical when I asked you if English was your first language. You have a strong vocabulary, but your expression to me suggests you think you know what you`re talking about.
Tony S-Ma - My friend, you cannot escape from your personal Karma.....The Universe records everything.


Do you know what karma is? Forget what you`ve read in books, do you know from direct experience what you`re talking about.
Eventually one realizes that one is one's own judge and jury for what one chooses to experience. When one is liberated, experiencing, judging, and trial happen simultaneously.
This reads like second-hand information, what you`ve been told or read from books. When you begin to awaken you start to realize you know nothing about anything. All these fancy concepts literally go out the window.

You stop identifying with labels/static names/the outer coating. Until you quit analyzing what the masters say and look to where they`re pointing, then you`ll stay talking in the outer shell. Words alone are empty/lifeless, but when you go to that deeper place the words become a bridge/gateway from that place (religious dogma creates barriers instead of the former).
I know you are not cynical. My conscious spiritual seeking started after I learned English. Karma to me is that one's own being is responsible for itself. Universe is a Karma unity. And the Universe is responsible of Itself. A human being as an image of the Universe is definitely responsible for itself.

What is your take on Karma?

I do know I exist, that is all that is needed. The rest is learning from Existence or from Life. I can never realize that I know nothing; however, I do realize my mind knows nothing to begin with.

The fancy concepts are foods for the mind which learns by digesting(integrating) them, not by copying them to make an argument for who is right or who is wrong :lol:

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:06 pm

RCharles wrote:It's a good discussion, but I'm going to let this topic go and just wish you peace and well-being before I get too ego-involved. (Probably too late.) :)
Charles, don't know if you'll read this or not, but maybe I can put it another way.

This might sound strange but what I say on this forum is brought out by 'the other'. Before I come on and once I'm finished on here, I don't know anything. I may use a lot of words, sound angry, cynical, arrogant, like I know what I'm talking about, but in actual fact I know nothing. It's like some sort of disturbance happens and causes an action when I read a post and get the feeling thought is blocking the other from seeing what I'm seeing. Not that we see exactly the same but there is a place where we should all meet regardless of language. A few know it directly but most just convince themselves of it. From this feeling that something isn't quite right, a response comes. It has nothing to do with me as a 'person'. It uses the knowledge the other seems to have taken for granted and fires it right back at them in an attempt to highlight the fallacy of that knowledge. Sometimes it's like a sword and very direct and cutting. That's when others call it 'anger' or something they perceive as negative. To me, it's just energy. Sometimes the energy has a gentleness about it and sometimes there is an enormous drive behind it to get a point across. As a way of putting it, I just get out of the way and let it express what it wants to express.

That seems to be the difference. Everyone is operating like that but thought usually interjects and tells them they can't say this or do that since it will appear negative. They are always adjusting themselves to appear in a good light. It's often worse in spiritual seekers because they have heard a lot about this 'ego' and so they are even more careful to appear 'ego-free' but isn't that carefulness ego itself? :)

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RCharles
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by RCharles » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:45 pm

Hi Seven,

I did read your comment and it's a useful observation. I do recognize what you're observing--that most of us, no matter how enlightened we think we are, still come from ego some of the time, and often we are completely unaware of it. That's why I so readily acknowledge it "out loud" on the forum when I can see I'm getting ego-involved--I don't want to fool myself--but like everybody, I do fool myself a lot of the time. This is what's good about this discussion--that we see how we fool ourselves.

I think Eckhart would say to acknowledge it, accept the reality that our egos often fool us--because it's human nature, and return to Presence. So while I find a lot of value in recognizing what you're discussing, I also don't want to dwell on it. It's good to recognize the ego, but even better to accept it as just part of "the dance." Recognize the ego, accept it, let it go; recognize, accept, let it go; recognize, accept, let it go.... In this way we become more conscious of ego each time it arises, and we slowly reduce its influence, but we don't get stuck in some form of cynicism in which we attack ourselves or others for having an ego. :D

Charles
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by samadhi » Wed Apr 29, 2009 8:17 pm

sevenworlds wrote:...makes no difference.
That seems like a very nihilistic worldview. But while from an ultimate sense "whether you do or don't makes no difference" might be true, from a relative perspective I don't think it's a healthy standpoint. If you see someone about to be attacked or killed, would you simply shrug your shoulders and think "ultimately it makes no difference whether I help or not"? That could lead to a callousness and coldness which I think branches away from realisation of truth and nonattachment and into dysfunction. This is where the contemplation of 'emptiness' is helpful when done within the Buddhist context; recognising the pitfall of slipping into nihilism and becoming completely disengaged from everything in this world, Buddhists refer to the 'middle path' and many schools advocate activism and the cultivation of a strong desire to alleviate the sufferings of others.

I admire the people who have made a difference in the world and helped end the suffering of others and would never negate their accomplishments simply because I know that, ultimately, this world is illusion and we're all destined to die anyway. Just because the world is ultimately an illusion doesn't mean that the sufferings endured in it aren't REAL now...so the attitude that it really doesn't matter is not, I personally feel, a particularly enlightened one. You see through the ultimate illusion, but you still reach out and help whenever you can. Compassion is a hallmark of awakening...without it, what's the point? What's the point in awakening if it isn't used to help the sufferings of the world, even if that world is but a dream?

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Sighclone » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:22 am

Very well put, samahdi. We have sentient beings here. Many suffer. Buddha could have just drifted around in bliss and silence. Same with Ramana. Eckhart says somewhere (I paraphrase) "If there is not unconditional love for all beings, then it is not enlightenment."

Enlightenment begins in the head, progresses through the heart, and finishes in the body - a gross simplification of Adya's teachings.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by lucy » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:07 am

Sighclone wrote:Enlightenment begins in the head, progresses through the heart, and finishes in the body - a gross simplification of Adya's teachings.
I like that Andy...but also like that it is only true for some, not for all.

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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Juniper22 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:38 am

Tony-S-Ma wrote: Karma to me is that one's own being is responsible for itself. Universe is a Karma unity. And the Universe is responsible of Itself. A human being as an image of the Universe is definitely responsible for itself.
You cannot be responsible for yourself because you`re the same person. By saying what you`ve said, you`ve split who you are in two.
What is your take on Karma?
Karma is a concept I don`t believe in.
I do know I exist, that is all that is needed. The rest is learning from Existence or from Life.

How do you know you exist, and why would you need to know in the first place?
I can never realize that I know nothing; however, I do realize my mind knows nothing to begin with.

Again you`ve just split who you are in two. According to you, there is you and there`s this thing called "mind."
"Don`t think of goodness; don`t think of evil; at this instant, what is your original face?" Hui Neng

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