Whether you do or you don't...

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mistral
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by mistral » Wed May 06, 2009 6:35 pm

Dear Seven Worlds, There is not me or my to imagine anything...If there is any imagining going on, it is happening within This Awareness that Belongs to God, Only, Single, Alone, One, Infinite All. I know what I speak of and I was actually in agreement with you.

Much Love to you, Mistral

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Wed May 06, 2009 7:26 pm

That's why I cannot say it any other way. I will only keep chopping at these ideas ruthlessly because I refuse to dress it up and comfort people in any way. It's all the comfort you've been getting that has burdened you with all these concepts of how hard it is and how you need it put a certain way. Throw away all the poetic, romantic notions of it and you'll laugh at how you could ever have missed it.
Yes, this is one facet of Awareness -- the naked king. However, others prefer the facet of embellished world. And yet others prefer the neutral facet: there no difference between the embellished and the naked. Of course there are more facets since mind can only view Reality discretely, and Reality is continuous. Mind must recognize its facet view of Reality is partial.

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Thu May 07, 2009 12:56 am

Very sorry mistral. Often when I say 'you', I don't mean it personally but to anybody reading. I'm just keen to attempt to clear up this misunderstanding of why it appears directness towards the actual living thing itself is somehow harder to take.

Tony, every statement is dead as soon as it's been put out there. The 'thing' itself can never be in the words so it's always going to be a framing of that moment. Still, each human being carries a unique expression. To try and be all things to all men is the game of the mind. You can't please everyone. I have no choice but to keep doing what I'm doing for no other reason than that. The impact it makes - good, bad or indifferent - is the business of whoever is receiving it.

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Onceler
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Onceler » Thu May 07, 2009 11:42 am

sevenworlds wrote:You can't please everyone. I have no choice but to keep doing what I'm doing for no other reason than that. The impact it makes - good, bad or indifferent - is the business of whoever is receiving it.
Brilliant! This is true for everyone. We are all fullfilling the obligations of reality.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Marcel Franke
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Marcel Franke » Thu May 07, 2009 12:03 pm

Some time ago I had some annoying ache, a constant burning,
high up my inside leg.

Under the shower I discovered that it was a big yellow pimple.

So I decided to squeeze it. (That really hurt. The sudden release of pus was audible.)
Dear Lord, what a difference that made !

Namaste,
MF.
---ooOoo---

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Thu May 07, 2009 12:17 pm

Tony, every statement is dead as soon as it's been put out there. The 'thing' itself can never be in the words so it's always going to be a framing of that moment. Still, each human being carries a unique expression. To try and be all things to all men is the game of the mind. You can't please everyone. I have no choice but to keep doing what I'm doing for no other reason than that. The impact it makes - good, bad or indifferent - is the business of whoever is receiving it.
We are in agreement that each human being carries a unique energy signature. I am more interested in the patterns which people express themselves. When you transcend your current expression pattern, you will be less irritating and more genuine. One of the characteristic of Truth is that it is identifiable along a progressive gradient.

Honestly, what you are doing has no impact on me because I have seen enough expression pattern like yours. I happen to be here, and wish you go up a notch on the progressive gradient of Truth. To be fair, your pattern of expression may wake somebody up from lower gradient of Truth. I experienced some awakening when I first encountered the expression pattern like yours. That is why you have caught my attention. The progressive gradient of Truth goes to Infinity, and there is a lot more to play with beyond mind.

Every statement is alive if one reads it is not dead. :lol: Repeating the same pattern is more like dead to me :twisted:

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Thu May 07, 2009 1:00 pm

Tony-S-Ma wrote:When you transcend your current expression pattern, you will be less irritating and more genuine.
:lol: Nice, but I have a feeling I may be irritating you for some time yet!
Tony-S-Ma wrote:I happen to be here, and wish you go up a notch on the progressive gradient of Truth.
So you are my saviour? I feel honoured.
Tony-S-Ma wrote:I experienced some awakening when I first encountered the expression pattern like yours. That is why you have caught my attention. The progressive gradient of Truth goes to Infinity, and there is a lot more to play with beyond mind.
Are you sure you experienced what you claim? From everything I read from you it doesn't sit right. You have to be careful because mind itself will project an image of Infinity as meaning you can go on and on, that there is no end, that there is always more to play with. Remember, the actual living thing is beyond even Infinity. Where does that leave you? There is not a point where you can say "I've arrived", like a fixed destination, but there is a point where all seeking comes to an end, where you know what you're not, and whatever you are left with you cannot say but it is just there living.

I could say I'm a baby to this but even that doesn't quite sit right with me. What I mean is yes, it hasn't been long in terms of time since something happened to me, and there is still debris from what was there before being shaken off by the body. As I understand it, this can go on for a few years or it could be for the rest of my time in this body. J. Krishnamurti apparently felt these aches and pains his whole life. It might deepen, I might experience this or that, but really none of that is my concern anymore. I am here now and I'm aware of what I'm not. This is the expression it's taking now. I don't feel I'm saying anything bold or brash, it just seems simple and obvious. Maybe it will become gentler and kinder (in the eyes of the other) or maybe it will become more abrasive, it is honestly nothing to do with me now.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Thu May 07, 2009 11:20 pm

You sound more like yourself now. There is only one Savior of mankind: Jesus. Others at most can be Teachers through personal experiences.

As far as claiming experiences. This is what I have noticed in life: similar pattern of experiences repeat many many times until one learns the lesson which the pattern teaches. I no longer need to doubt what I have learned so far in my life.

After reading from others, one needs to experiment with the claims. Yes, I understand your claims because I experienced them as well as experiment with them. Regarding Infinity, It is beyond mind; therefore, It can only be symbolized and approximated. When I was four, I was able to count. I asked my father what was the largest possible number. My father was unable to answer me but drew the symbol of infinite for me and claimed it was the largest possible number.

Your understanding of mind gives one two choices: shutting down the mind or soldiering on with the mind. Both choices will give a person awakening experiences. I can tell you that I have experimented with both. I can also tell you that the latter is a lot richer than the former.

J. Krishnamurti was not humble enough to learn from others. He was too proud of his own understanding. The pains and aches he carried all his life were indicators that he did not learn the lessons presented in them.

I have experienced many mental conditions; but they are gone after the corresponding lessons are learned.

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Thu May 07, 2009 11:48 pm

Tony-S-Ma wrote:There is only one Savior of mankind: Jesus. Others at most can be Teachers through personal experiences.
This belief will keep you imprisoned for as long as you hold it. What do you know for yourself about Jesus other than what you've learnt?
Tony-S-Ma wrote:Your understanding of mind gives one two choices: shutting down the mind or soldiering on with the mind. Both choices will give a person awakening experiences.
I'm not sure what you mean by an 'awakening experience'. How can you choose to shut down the mind? I think what I'm getting at is either seen directly by the one reading it or not at all. If it is seen, it has absolutely nothing to do with me. It is their own direct knowing.
Tony-S-Ma wrote:J. Krishnamurti was not humble enough to learn from others. He was too proud of his own understanding. The pains and aches he carried all his life were indicators that he did not learn the lessons presented in them.
I don't want to get into a debate about J. Krishnamurti but do you know that last statement you make for a fact? I've also heard Eckhart mention pain being lodged in his physical body. Most I've encountered experience this phenonema - Mooji, UG Krishnamurti, Ramana... of the body going through changes. The seeing I'm talking about is not some radical mind thing. It is a total transformation - both mental, emotional and physical. Some have leftover stuff lodged in the body while it seems others rid themselves of it all. It no longer matters. Are you suggesting all of these people haven't been humble enough and what makes you believe Jesus was any different?

Anyway, shall we call it a day? I don't think we're going to get any further here - it just goes round in circles.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Fri May 08, 2009 12:07 am

Don't be fooled by what you read about others which seem to be similar to your own experiences. You are not experiencing Truth, but group Karma. kindred souls experience kindred life experiences to learn the same lessons.

I am sure you have not learned the lesson of being transformed by Jesus' presence. I am sure your knowledge of Jesus is only intellectual. I am very sure that Jesus' humility has never been matched by anyone else in entire human existence.

Regarding shutting down the mind: How do you put a computer out of commission? You either turn it off or make it go into an infinite loop. Mantra recitation is designed to put the mind into an infinite loop. Making the mind fixated on a same understanding will do the same trick. This is cruelty to mind.
Last edited by Tony-S-Ma on Fri May 08, 2009 12:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

tod
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by tod » Fri May 08, 2009 12:17 am

sevenworlds wrote:
samadhi wrote:
sevenworlds wrote:...makes no difference.
That seems like a very nihilistic worldview. But while from an ultimate sense "whether you do or don't makes no difference" might be true, from a relative perspective I don't think it's a healthy standpoint. If you see someone about to be attacked or killed, would you simply shrug your shoulders and think "ultimately it makes no difference whether I help or not"?
Even dressing it up as "relative" or "ultimate" makes no difference. That's how silly all this is. You can talk about the problems of non-duality, Advaita, neo-Advaita... whatever you like, but all you are doing is superimposing more concepts on the concepts I am using. I am making some statements. The statements themselves are not the actual fact. Yet you are then getting worried about how those statements might be misleading people. Both my statements and your statements are making no difference to what is actually happening.

If I see someone about to be attacked or killed my action will be my action. Whatever thought is there - "makes no difference whether I help or not" - doesn't change a thing. If I don't take any action, then after the event I may buy into another thought that convinces me my previous thought was what made me not take action. All of them are unrelated to the action itself.
7w, what is "actually happening" if thought "doesn't change a thing"?

Juniper22
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Juniper22 » Fri May 08, 2009 1:14 am

Tony-S-Ma wrote: I am sure you have not learned the lesson of being transformed by Jesus' presence. I am sure your knowledge of Jesus is only intellectual. I am very sure that Jesus' humility has never been matched by anyone else in entire human existence.
Aye... you`re sure of everything and know nothing about anything.
"Don`t think of goodness; don`t think of evil; at this instant, what is your original face?" Hui Neng

mmy
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by mmy » Fri May 08, 2009 7:12 am

Tony-S-Ma wrote:J. Krishnamurti was not humble enough to learn from others. He was too proud of his own understanding. The pains and aches he carried all his life were indicators that he did not learn the lessons presented in them.

How do you know this? I know very little about J. Krishnamurti but how can one say what someone else learns (or not) from their own experiences in life.
Pain does not equate not learning. What about people who live with chronic pain or people in a cancer ward or burn unit of a hospital, receiving palliative care that are in considerable amounts of pain. They are dealing with what is, and not because of some “lesson” they somehow didn’t learn.

sevenworlds
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by sevenworlds » Fri May 08, 2009 11:27 am

tod wrote:
sevenworlds wrote:7w, what is "actually happening" if thought "doesn't change a thing"?
Nothing is happening! Just supposing we're arguing over something. You've got your view and I've got mine. Neither of us is really listening to the other. We're speaking and listening to our own ideas. This is what everyone is doing. Now and again, a change seems to happen. We put that change down to the talking (working it out through thought) but what is the thing that is making that assumption - it is thought again, to give itself a good reason to keep going. Thought creates the timeline, the cause and effect. Take that away and you could say life is just one big block movement or a series of individual, unrelated events. Even these ideas are gone.

You can clearly see that in action here. If people don't like what I say they reject it. I have no control over it. No matter how many times you tell someone to leave their family or murder someone, can they do it? Only if it's already within them to do so. We're all just like machines, ready-programmed.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Whether you do or you don't...

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Fri May 08, 2009 12:28 pm

Perhaps, we should go back to the subject "Whether you do or you don't..."

One theory about awakening is that it has little or nothing to do with what the awakened person had done, is doing and will do. The classic example is Ramana Maharshi. According to his own tale, after an extreme fear of death, he entered a different state of consciousness. After this transformation, he sought explanation in traditional Hinduism teachings. ET seems to have experienced a similar transformation.

In J. Krishnamurti's case, he was coached to be somebody since he was very young because some people were able to determine that J. Krishnamurti was somebody special when they accidentally met him. His transformation can hardly be accidental.

Can awakening be objectively determined? If so, awakening would be a subject in science.

In this sense, there is not any determining condition or factor for awakening. Neither awakening can be defined nor objectively tested. If one has experienced something, one is able to detect whether another has experienced something similar. A master blacksmith can tell right away whether a person knows how to do iron work.

However, awakening experiences seem to be on a progressive scale. After one meet enough Teachers and experiment on oneself long enough, one learns the lesson that some people are more awake than others.

Awakening is non-linear; therefore, cause and effect has nothing to do with it. In this sense, "Whether you do or you don't..." make perfect sense.

Why do you wish to be awakened anyway? End your own suffering, pain, illness? To be happy? To help mankind? Ultimately, what you are truly determines what you are experiencing. If you are negative and mean, your life experiences can hardly be positive and nice, and your expressions are probably negative and mean unless you are pretending.

So some people in the spiritual business suggest that one observes oneself and determine what one is and then see whether one intend to change oneself. Of course, when one is awakened like Ramana Maharshi, one has little or no intention to change oneself due to the power of the awakening.

Fortunately, there are a few in human history who are still able to change what they are after they had powerful awakening. I am glade that I have read their stories; otherwise, I would be stuck in the understanding: awakening is the end. There is no end to awakening :lol:

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