A Message From Shore to Ship

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jugu
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A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by jugu » Sat May 02, 2009 8:26 am

I could make this longer but I imagine that in the discussion that will ensue, I'll be able to say all I need to say. But please, if this seems hostile, I am only hostile to your false beliefs and how close you your coming to making the worst mistake of your life. I am the frightened mother scolding her child for talking to strangers.

Although the quest most of you have embarked on is based on good intentions and logic, it is based on the utterly false pretense that your life will be better once you've become enlightened. The fact is, life cannot get any worse after enlightenment. I know this because I took the journey that you take now. I took it with the same beliefs, the same intentions and hopes as all of you. I took this journey to the only place it ends. I am fully enlightened, a big fat fucking jnani, and let me tell you, I could not be anymore upset at what this is. Say what you want, that this is my ego wanting things a different way, it will all be a false attempt to justify your position and to validate your hopes of a blissful enlightenment. I know how all you work, I know the bits of logic you use to nullify any ideological opponents, I know that you'll do that with whatever you say, fine. But the purpose of this post is to warn you all, not to sway your opinion. I feel you all deserve to live a full life, you don't deserve to be lied to. You can have a long and beautiful life, only if you abandon your quest for enlightenment. Trust me, once you get here, theres no going back. That's been the dread of my life for the past 7 months, seeing what this is and trying to go back to my old egoic life. But theres no going back, thats the most terrifying part.

Anyone who tells you they are enlightened and who teaches you things like bliss, universal intelligence and all of that stuff, they may sound like a Saviour but they're really just full of it. I'm sure what Eckhart has been through is true, but he really hasn't gone fully into what he teaches, he's only a baby in the enlightened game. And judging from lots of his non-core teachings, he's a baby with a BIG imagination (ego) and a big mouth. I can't begin to tell you how irresponsible he is for teaching millions of people that this is path that leads to glory when he hasn't even traversed it fully himself! Trust me folks, I know the truth and I'm far from going out and telling the world about it.

P.S.- hasn't Eckhart struck you as more of a business man rather than a guru?... Retreats, several books, meditation cards, an Oprah deal, and now he's even selling subscriptions to an online webcast! What does a man who enjoys the most simplest salvation need with all that money?

Let me tell you a little about this state that I'm in, and a state that you'll find yourself in if you take any of spirituality seriously (after all, you should know what you may be getting yourself into):

First and most obviously, I have very little compelling attachments. I'm not really controlled by any ideas (for instance, the thoughts: "it's late, I really should go to bed" or "I shouldn't say that to her, it may really hurt her feelings" don't occur. I feel no social barriers whatsoever, neither do I have any sense of self-worry. That sounds great huh? No worries, nothing to keep you back... but its not great. I have absolutely no direction in this respect. So being free isn't so great when you have nothing do need that freedom for.

Second, I lack ambitions, or wants. That's not to say that I don't have any, but the ones I have don't control how I life my life. I use them so I have a reason to keep going, not to make me happier. All my wants and ambitions are very controlled, i have to try very hard to want something. I'm never compelled to want something. Now you might think this is great, and that I must be completely content all the time, but this couldn't be more far from the truth. It's more like I've realized nothing will satisfy me and so I've given up on all attempts to do so. Not fun.

Third, I think very little. This sucks... totally. You guys are right, ego is a barrier between you and reality, but has it ever occurred to you that ego is reality as well? I'm sure you have. So why abandon your own, more intimate reality for something totally foreign like the outside world? Thats how it is. "Out there" is the last thing you want as your primary reality, it's always changing and you can't trust it. I hardly have any beliefs and that includes my beliefs on reality. I hardly have any reality and it is the most frightening thing. REALITY! All there is, or in my case, all there isn't! Please, don't fuck with this. It's kind of a big deal.

Now the reason I still blog on this forum is because I don't think anyone in their right mind who actually knew what this was would go into it. Yes, I know spiritual teachers will tell you you have to be crazy to get into this, but that's false in a way. you probably are searching for something pure, and something everyone can attain, and for something like that, fuck yeah, its natural to fuck what everyone else says and go in by yourself, but folks, this is a cold and empty road and it leads to NOWHERE! I don't mean nowhere in the sense of the strangely misused terms "nothingness" or "abyss", I mean nowhere as in "I regret coming here" and "why on earth didn't I see this coming".

It's not too late to turn around. Save this for your deathbed, after all, your life is but a ripple in an ocean right?

Please, I'm sure I have plenty of explaining to do so feel free to ask challenging questions.

Jugu

Robbrent
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Robbrent » Sat May 02, 2009 12:25 pm

It's a bit like the matrix films, take the red or the blue pill, wherever you want to be, me I have found a lot of peace

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Onceler
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Onceler » Sat May 02, 2009 1:29 pm

Thanks for the heads up, Jugu. Fortunately I don't think I am in any danger of becoming enlightened any time soon. I do enjoy my egoic ways.
Not sure I believe in the concept of "fully enlightened". I personally think it is a process that is infinite. How do you know you are not in some transitional period?

P.S. I would also gently encourage you to consider some alternatives and see if they don't describe your experience more accurately; look up the diagnostic criteria for depression and dissociative disorders.
Be present, be pleasant.

jugu
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by jugu » Sat May 02, 2009 5:49 pm

Onceler wrote: I personally think it is a process that is infinite. How do you know you are not in some transitional period?


I agree, theres no such thing as certifiable enlightemnent. I'm really only relatively enlightened compared to the rest of us. I do have a certain amount of functional and personal ego still. And thats another thing, there is no enlightenment really. Spiritual seekers are striving for nothing! Enlightenment is the goal but it is so empty that it couldn't be anything but a prize for the biggest looser in the universe. There's no good from enlightenment! Your life can be alot more enjoyable living egotistically, even if it's hard sometimes.
Onceler wrote:P.S. I would also gently encourage you to consider some alternatives and see if they don't describe your experience more accurately; look up the diagnostic criteria for depression and dissociative disorders.
Thanks, but no thanks. Really, all the negative things I'm experiencing are a part of a package. I asked for all of this, only I was told that it was the complete opposite of what it is. "I asked for an ice cream sundae and got a poke in the eye."

jugu
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by jugu » Sat May 02, 2009 5:50 pm

Robbrent wrote:It's a bit like the matrix films, take the red or the blue pill, wherever you want to be, me I have found a lot of peace
Take a couple more of those blue pills, see how stoned you can REALLY get.

karmarider
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by karmarider » Sat May 02, 2009 7:02 pm

This is a good post. Anything that jostles staunch egos is good.

You words sound sincere. From what I get, you are warning against enlightenment because your experience with it has not been good. You are asking people to consider their fixed ideas about enlightenment. That's completely valid. I would ask you, too, to consider, lucidly and without reacting, whether your ideas are also fixated.

The process of awakening releases all the gunk of the past--anxiety, depression, and addictions. Most people would consider that a good thing. Leaving the ego's world of fear and sadness--most people would consider that a good thing. For many people who are awakening, including this mind, there are periods of apathy, detachment and confusion. Consider whether you are in that intervening period.

As far as the big-bang enlightenment that most people expect, and that gurus heartily encourage--I completely agree with you. But warning people who are chasing enlightenment for bliss or oneness or universal being is superfluous--they will never get 'there' as long as they cling to concepts about enlightenment. I would say it differently though. I would say give up the chase for enlightenment. Don't pretend to give it up and secretly hope for it because you read somewhere that chasing enlightenment is an obstacle--but actually give it up. Give up the silly identities of being spiritual, sensitive, and belonging a group of people "in the know." Live your life. Just be aware, and release. That's all there is. It's utterly ordinary, right here, right now.
jugu wrote:I could make this longer...
Thanks for not making it longer... :)
jugu wrote:...I am the frightened mother scolding her child for talking to strangers.
Then, reconsider where you think you are in the awakening process.
jugu wrote:your life will be better once you've become enlightened. The fact is, life cannot get any worse after enlightenment.
Awakening makes no promises.
jugu wrote:You can have a long and beautiful life, only if you abandon your quest for enlightenment...Anyone who tells you they are enlightened and who teaches you things like bliss, universal intelligence and all of that stuff, they may sound like a Saviour but they're really just full of it.
I fully agree. Give up all quests. Give up the quest for bliss, and give up the quest of warning people against it; just be present.
jugu wrote:P.S.- hasn't Eckhart struck you as more of a business man rather than a guru?... Retreats, several books, meditation cards, an Oprah deal, and now he's even selling subscriptions to an online webcast! What does a man who enjoys the most simplest salvation need with all that money?
Yes, Eckhart has is a clever marketeer, and he could very well be more charitable. It isn't required. Criticizing him is the same wasteful energy as the doe-eyed worship of an infallible Eckhart whose every word is gold. Both are traps. Hear him, and then forget about him, and work on your own presence.

In your remaining post, you talk about your unhappiness with "very little compelling attachments. I'm not really controlled by any ideas...no social barriers..[no] sense of self-worry...no direction..[no] ambitions, or wants...I think very little..."

Consider whether you're in a state of detachment, apathy, anger or depression. Your post is impassioned--so at least in that small way it contradicts your claim that you have few attachments or ambitions. You believe your enlightenment is irreversible--how can that be true?

randomguy
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by randomguy » Sat May 02, 2009 11:55 pm

One of the free audio satsangs on Adyashanti's website (called "The Three Phases of Awakening") starts with Adya reading a letter of thanks from someone who had recently listened to one of his satsangs. The thank you seemed genuinely sincere and the author goes on to describe his awakening process and his experiences with various teachers and teachings. Then he goes on to describe his life situation over the past 5 years which included feeling unable to work, quitting his job, spending his savings, living hand to mouth, etc. Likewise he described having doubts but ultimately feeling at peace.

Awakening uses the mind on the mind. It is only a journey for those who find themselves on the journey. A solid belief system can suddenly erode beneath one's feet. I seem to hear about various stories of people following non-dual teaching describing feeling stuck or lost or confused. But it also seems that those stories are richly prevalent on any path.

I have a notion that the primary distinction of non-dual teaching among other faith based paths is that it places the sole authority of determining what is true upon the individual. That and it also encourages questioning everything including any non-dual teaching. To quote Adya, "All of non-duality is a croc..."

For me the simple practices of being still and questioning the mind works to provide an internal compass needle that miraculously repeatedly points to what is true for me.

A guy wipes out on a surfboard. His new religion is surfing sucks, nobody should do it. What kind of sense is that?

In my opinion, the disturbance described in the OP is primarily an issue of attitude.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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Onceler
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Onceler » Sun May 03, 2009 1:47 am

Good addition, Randomguy. Nothing's for certain and this hits our nervous systems very differently and individually.
Be present, be pleasant.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Sun May 03, 2009 5:37 am

In my experience, the initial motivation of enlightenment seeking is usually somewhat selfish, one faces many great disappointments in the process. Somehow, during these disappointments, one learns enlightenment seeking is not for oneself. Gates will open up. I do agree with Jugu that ET is a baby in the Enlightenment Business.

The depression one experiences is very very very uncomfortable when most what one believed are knocked out one's system. Yeah, there is no way back, but soldiering on or hanging around at the halfway point. After one overcomes a halfway point, one gains more courage to soldier on. One will be less depressed at the next halfway point, and eventually free of depression when facing these halfway points between gates.

"Check whether you really want to go all the way to a gate or not before starting the quest." No one knows what is the gate nearest to you. Others can only related their experiences for the gates they have passed. After playing this long enough, one will realize that the gates one passes are very different from what one have learned from others. Questing without expectation is one of the gates one needs to pass.

I am very appreciative of Jugu's advice to those who are not ready to go all the way. In today's commercialized spirituality, not many are courageous enough to point out all aspects of spiritual seeking.

Buddha's Enlightenment story actually told the Truth about spiritual seeking: One must prepare to go all the way no matter what.

If one is not ready, it is better to hang on those positive beliefs. Ego is a self-protective system for those who are not ready. Be thankful.

A Message From A Lonely Island to Ships Departing from A Safe Harbor :lol:

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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by eagle2phoenix » Sun May 03, 2009 7:01 am

No one said that enlightenment comes easy. That is why there are the rare jewels who are truly enlightened. But then, even these rare jewels never had it easy. See how Jesus Christ suffered. See how the Buddha struggled with himself.

I don't know about what others feel, but I am one not seeking enlightenment, rather awareness. The awareness to stay centered and calm in the worst of situations. That I have struggled with. "I" (ego/personality) have been conditioned to be judgmental, critical, cynical by most of my encounters with people. That is how i got into depression. The true I and the conditioned "I" are always in conflict. "I" do/say something and I the watcher disagree. I used to get really worked up by the voice in my head (sub conscience?) but then reading the little that ET wrote, I began to understand that voice and started listening to it. That voice woke me up to look beyond what I see. I was once blind to nature, I am now open to its beauty. Conflict will still happen, "I" will still be egoistic at times but I am aware and slowly it will dissolve.

That would be my deserted island to the ship or to the mainlands.
Life is fascinating. Nature is beautiful. Live life with nature.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Sun May 03, 2009 7:57 am

I have a notion that the primary distinction of non-dual teaching among other faith based paths is that it places the sole authority of determining what is true upon the individual. That and it also encourages questioning everything including any non-dual teaching. To quote Adya, "All of non-duality is a croc..."

For me the simple practices of being still and questioning the mind works to provide an internal compass needle that miraculously repeatedly points to what is true for me.
"Placing the sole authority of determining what is true upon the individual" is also questioned according to the practice. The Way of Love taught by Jesus does not give rise to any conflict; therefore, more superior from intellectual perspective as well as in practice.

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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Webwanderer » Sun May 03, 2009 7:06 pm

I like this little snippet by jugu the most:
Trust me folks
It's one of those expressions that says so much more than the words themselves imply. Shall I trust "me", or my lying eyes (direct experience)? Even better, shall I trust another's me, of which I can have no direct experience (except for the fear it may generate within "me"), or shall I follow the primal urge that inspires me to greater understanding?

Are there risks? Certainly. But is there not also risk in wasting the opportunities that life offers?

Thanks for the post jugu. Some of your concerns are not without merrit. If ego drives the quest for awakening it will likely result in a concept of self that is born of thought unsupported by experience. Not to worry though. Life has a way of working with the conditions at hand. It may be unrecognizable to the mind, but it is none the less a path worth walking.

WW

jugu
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by jugu » Sun May 03, 2009 9:45 pm

randomguy wrote:In my opinion, the disturbance described in the OP is primarily an issue of attitude.
Wrong. Given the fact that I was suckered into this misleading pack of lies, non-duality, giving my whole self to it in hope of getting something better in return only to be left with absolutely nothing, I'd say my attitude is pretty godamned peachy.

Pretend for a second... your 19. Have tons of energy, passion, motivation, grand ambition. You want to change the world. You find this philosophy that promises that you'll find what you've always been looking for, and it's so simple. So you say fuck it. Fuck what your parents say, fuck your friends, fuck school, fuck plans, fuck relationships, I'm going for whats real, I want the real thing. You do just that. You go, all on your own, knee deep in the shit, down in the dark looking for "it". Then finally, some really clever bastard tells you where it is. It was so simple, you knew the whole time, and it wasn't what you were looking for.

Adya say's it's "the end of your world". The-End-of-Your-World. It's that simple. No more, it's the end.

I don't know how I've made it this long, going to work, hanging out with friends, living with my family, doing things normally. All things considered, I think my attitude has been phenomenal. I've really shown true strength to myself. But you know, it makes you so impersonal, a bit like a monster. It's hard to live with, thats for sure. I've been literally considering suicide for about 7 months now... I'm 19 for chrissake!
Last edited by jugu on Sun May 03, 2009 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jugu
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by jugu » Sun May 03, 2009 9:58 pm

Webwanderer wrote:is there not also risk in wasting the opportunities that life offers?WW
This isn't an opportunity ww. This is the end of opportunities. No more things to look forward to. It's not creation or development or evolution or anything "better". This is you, turning in your gloves, hoping that life, or reality, or the universe is going to treat you nicely.

You are right, I guess you shouldn't really trust "me". But at the same time, if you hadn't of trusted half the spiritual teachers you've encountered in your life you wouldn't be headed into this minnow trap.

Robbrent
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Robbrent » Sun May 03, 2009 10:48 pm

From my perspective I would say that whatever brings you peace and joy and a release from the constant negative thoughts and emotions that have accompanied me for so very long is worth it for me, but it has also helped me to function so much better in reality. May be not in the case of the person that started this thread, I would have thought with practise you can change you state to being mostly out of the now, and the world of thought pretty much the same as most people lean to be in the now

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