A Message From Shore to Ship

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
goman87
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by goman87 » Thu May 07, 2009 8:03 am

jugu wrote:
Marcel Franke wrote:Please forgive me, but I do not understand.
That is, I do not understand what the exact problem is.
Can you explain what is the central problem, or the biggest,
in your eyes, in your experience ?
The problem Marcel, is that enlightenment is an existential nightmare!
This didn't make sense to me. You're in control of those emotions man and let the good ones come and the bad ones go. Try thinking of the sprout of the bad emotions and figure it!
Wake up

You loser didn't reply to my post hahah

goman87
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by goman87 » Thu May 07, 2009 8:08 am

jugu wrote:
Tau_Neutrino wrote:You sound stuck Jugo.
I'm not stuck on anything, nothing at all. I don't hold any beliefs really. Or at least, the beliefs I have don't really affect me as they do you. So no, I'm not stuck.
Tau_Neutrino wrote:I think the only thing that will help you is reality. You need to be completely honest with yourself about what is happening
Oh yeah! I don't have to lie to myself anymore.Everything is fine! Life is peace and unconditional love! So fine and dandy! Oh, how did I ever confuse myself?

Gimme a break.
Huh! Life is not all of those things with karma is it!!!? Bad emotions and guilt! We have to get over these things and you don't need to lie to yourself. Acceptance jugu. I just got a remote-healing session done tonight and had a bunch of blocks the emotional kind. One word of advice he told me was guilt and acceptance. Made total sense.

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Marcel Franke
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Marcel Franke » Thu May 07, 2009 11:31 am

Jugu:
> The problem Marcel, is that enlightenment is an existential nightmare!

Ah, I see.
Nightmare is something I most certainly can relate to.
But then I wonder, what does nightmare mean to you ?

In my specific case, a nightmare, or a daymare,
mostly boils down to one thing: fear.

Can you pinpoint your specific -nightmare-feeling- ?

Greetings,
Marcel.
---ooOoo---

goman87
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by goman87 » Thu May 07, 2009 9:17 pm

Ahhhh don't give it to him!

jugu
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by jugu » Fri May 08, 2009 3:46 am

goman87 wrote:. You're in control of those emotions man and let the good ones come and the bad ones go.
Good and bad emotions are a product of duality. If you rid yourself of bad emotions you have no contrast to define your good emotions against. Again, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

goman87
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by goman87 » Fri May 08, 2009 9:09 am

jugu wrote:
goman87 wrote:. You're in control of those emotions man and let the good ones come and the bad ones go.
Good and bad emotions are a product of duality. If you rid yourself of bad emotions you have no contrast to define your good emotions against. Again, "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".
In no way do I need my bad emotions to feel good ones. I know my emotions really well at the point I can rid them all. Sure you feel down at times :| You know what to do. Watch your emotions more..

jugu
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by jugu » Fri May 08, 2009 9:36 am

goman87 wrote:You know what to do. Watch your emotions more..
It's pointless. What does that do? Nothing... Just more reason not to care about anything.

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Marcel Franke
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Marcel Franke » Fri May 08, 2009 10:22 am

Jugu:
> Just more reason not to care about anything.

That might be so.
However, you -do- care.
You give us a lot of attention.
And, of course, you know what pure attention is.
---ooOoo---

goman87
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by goman87 » Fri May 08, 2009 9:22 pm

jugu wrote:
goman87 wrote:You know what to do. Watch your emotions more..
It's pointless. What does that do? Nothing... Just more reason not to care about anything.
I'm caring, really empathetic. A difference between not caring and not minding.

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Sighclone
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Sighclone » Mon May 11, 2009 10:05 pm

goman -
A difference between not caring and not minding.
What a nice, important comment. The difference is huge, and highlights one of the 'steps' in enlightenment that Adya discusses. He suggests that awakening happens first in the mind - the heart-level is later. Trigger portals exist in both areas, of course. "Accepting" is like not minding, but "not caring" results in the lonely displaced, incomplete life of the recluse. Eckhart says "If there is not an emanation of love for all beings, then it is not enlightenment." That is caring.

Is anyone aware of any comments on Ramana's decision to leave the cave after eleven years, and begin public discourse?

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

OneLove
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by OneLove » Mon May 11, 2009 11:03 pm

Sighclone wrote:Ramana's decision to leave the cave after eleven years, and begin public discourse?
I don't think he had much choice in the matter. I don't even think he ever even wanted to be a Guru.

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RCharles
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by RCharles » Tue May 12, 2009 1:09 am

I'm responding to Jugu's original message. This is just speculation based loosely on my experience.

When I meditated as a youngster (early 20s), my experience was similar to Jugu's. I was already an introverted personality, and after intensive meditation I became very introverted and depressed. All I wanted to do was meditate all the time, or lie around and watch the world go by. I did not know God at that time and didn't have much of a value system to guide me.

After leaving meditation, I found God and have lived my entire adult life as a devout believer in Christ. From my faith I learned about love of God, humility, morals, and compassion. Much of the time I was not fully able to live my beliefs, but they were nevertheless pretty thoroughly ingrained in my personality as important values.

Last year I returned to meditation within the context of my Christian faith, and my experience has been completely different. Meditation has brought tremendous peace, a sense of oneness with God, less ego, and a lot more compassion. It's enabling me to better live all those values I learned. Life is almost all joy.

What caused the difference between the two experiences (a gap of 25 years)? I really don't know, but having lived a while now, I find compassion comes more naturally because I know something about the suffering life brings first hand. For some reason, meditation has intensified compassion. Knowing God may be a factor also. With God there is meaning even as dualistic belief fades. I said elsewhere in this forum that it feels like I am slowly disappearing and God is more fully present. It is a joyous experience, and I am much more comfortable with life and society, much more accepting of whatever is.

The last possible factor is that I learned a certain amount of extroversion over that 25-year period. I'm not the shy introverted kid I once was. Meditation no longer intensifies my introversion, perhaps, because I am no longer an introvert (though I am not quite a true extrovert either).

I wonder about this: If someone starts out without God and without a love of people and of life in general, as the ego diminishes through meditation, perhaps only an introverted nothingness remains, leading to nihilism, existential crisis, and a distaste for society.

On the practical level, if someone has such an experience, it seems like just stopping the meditation for a while would solve a lot of the problem. The other answer may be to enhance one's love of God and people, perhaps by finding a group of people to hang with who practice those values. It might all seem like an empty game at first, but time might change things. After gaining some maturity, it's possible a return to meditation might bring a new, positive form of non-dualistic awareness, as it did for me.

Charles (or RC as Andy calls me :) )
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

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Onceler
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Onceler » Tue May 12, 2009 3:15 am

Nice posts, RC, thanks. I love honest, personal stories like yours which is, in fact, similar to mine.
Be present, be pleasant.

OneLove
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by OneLove » Wed May 13, 2009 8:52 am

RCharles wrote:If someone starts out without God and without a love of people and of life in general, as the ego diminishes through meditation, perhaps only an introverted nothingness remains, leading to nihilism, existential crisis, and a distaste for society.
Well Ray, if that be true then God help (no pun intended) all the majority of spiritual seekers. Non-dualism is primarily atheist. Some people like to replace "God" with "Source" or something like that but to true seekers there is no such thing. There is only you and what you see in front of you, so if anyone expects to find something like God in this search, he will find himself inconveniently without one. :evil:

Grautgramsen
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Grautgramsen » Wed May 13, 2009 1:49 pm

The person who started this thread comes across as someone who's quite possibly got some personal problems, and not as someone who is particularly spiritually evolved or enlightened. Whether or not that is so, I do not feel inclined to take any kind of advice from him/her, and certainly not when it comes to matters of spirituality and self-realisation. The fact that he/she indulges in coarse language and poor grammar doesn't help much either. The spiritual quest, once it has become a conscious process, is not something that one can choose to "drop" or abandon, and even if that was the case, it would certainly not happen as a result of a complete stranger's ramblings on an Internet message board.

To become slightly more personal and as a way of explaining my point of view, I'll briefly mentioned how I started on "the spiritual quest" in the first place. I was stirred from my spiritual slumber when I started reading and listening to J. Krishnamurti at the age of 21. It wasn't that I got some nice, new ideas to play around with and believe in; my way of perception, relating and being underwent a dramatic change as a result of a sincere and heartfelt study of Krishnamurti's teaching. I started seeing life and the world in a new and much more authentic way; in short, I became a lot more present. I also had some very powerful experiences that shook me to the core and made me realise that the way in which I and most other people live and see the world is almost entirely based on illusion. The rug was pulled from underneath my feet, so to speak, and nothing could ever be the same afterwards. I lost interest in "the ways of the world" and never felt much inclined to make a name or position for myself in the world. I didn't exactly sit on park benches for years on end, but became a complete nobody in the eyes of the world, and has remained so ever since (which is fine with me).

I've mentioned the above to highlight the fact that once this kind of spiritual wake-up call happens in your life, there's no going back. I cannot change any of this, and neither do I want to. It's a bit like what happened when I matured physically/sexually a few years previous to when my spiritual process became more conscious. Once I was physically developed and felt the magnificent power of sexuality beginning to stir in me, there was no way I could relate to women in the same way anymore or pretend that I wasn't sexually attracted to them. Just imagine if someone had come along and said to me: "No, you must not do this! You don't know what you're getting yourself into (true enough!), you can get diseases, you can make someone pregnant, there's all sorts of conflicts and emotional problems ahead if you don't drop your interest in women. Please for your own sake, give up on this right now and go back to your pre-puberty ways. It'll be so much easier for you. Be a child again and be happy like that..." and so on so forth.

Well, it's obvious that even if someone had come along and told me things like that, none of it would have made even the slightest difference. And likewise, nothing that anyone can ever say or do can make a difference in terms of making me go back to my old ego-based, unconscious and miserable way of life, that I thought was real, before the great shift took place in my life. The journey into self-realisation is of course an ongoing process, one I suspect may never actually end, and one in which there is always something new to learn. What I can say with absolute certainty though, is that there is a lot less fear and a lot more love, a lot less conflict and a lot more harmony, and a lot less internal noise and a lot more stillness in my life now. I could go on and on, but you get the idea; it is my experience that the quality of my life has improved very substantially over the last 30 or so years.

As far as enlightenment goes, well I'm sorry I haven't a clue. It's just a word isn't it, yet another concept to believe or disbelieve in, something that many people have a lot of grand ideas about, something we've all read about and heard about, but who knows what it is, if it is anything at all. I'm not worried or concerned about enlightenment, regardless of whether it's the ultimate nightmare or the ultimate bliss. The miracle of life as it unfolds here and now is too precious to waste on getting lost in fantasies about some imagined "perfect" state. Somebody once put it like this: "Life is not a problem to be solved. It is a mystery to be lived." Amen to that!

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