A Message From Shore to Ship

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Webwanderer
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Webwanderer » Wed May 13, 2009 2:49 pm

OneLove wrote: ...if that be true then God help (no pun intended) all the majority of spiritual seekers. Non-dualism is primarily atheist. Some people like to replace "God" with "Source" or something like that but to true seekers there is no such thing. There is only you and what you see in front of you, so if anyone expects to find something like God in this search, he will find himself inconveniently without one. :evil:
Not so. Athiesm is a philosophy/concept of no God and is very much religious in nature. If you are indeed an honest truth seeker, you must allow life to be as it is. God or no God should be irrelevant to a search for truth. In the end, as in the begining, fundamental truth remains regardless of how we may perceive it. Isn't the search for truth just that, and not a search for validation of our sacred cows?

WW

randomguy
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by randomguy » Wed May 13, 2009 3:34 pm

Webwanderer wrote:
OneLove wrote: ...if that be true then God help (no pun intended) all the majority of spiritual seekers. Non-dualism is primarily atheist. Some people like to replace "God" with "Source" or something like that but to true seekers there is no such thing. There is only you and what you see in front of you, so if anyone expects to find something like God in this search, he will find himself inconveniently without one. :evil:
Not so. Athiesm is a philosophy/concept of no God and is very much religious in nature. If you are indeed an honest truth seeker, you must allow life to be as it is. God or no God should be irrelevant to a search for truth. In the end, as in the begining, fundamental truth remains regardless of how we may perceive it. Isn't the search for truth just that, and not a search for validation of our sacred cows?
WW
When I identified myself as an atheist, I preferred the definition of "without religion". The definition on wikipedia describes it as the rejection of theism, rejecting a doctrine of the existence of one or more gods. Sure many people become religious about any concept, including one of no religion. B. Katie was religious about socks being pickup up off the floor. It's just thought identification. And now I question the defensive glow inside that still appears about the concept of atheism. What would I be without the atheist story? Again and again. This is how habits die away. It is just a concept and not true, just as is the concept of "true seeker". Concepts, categorizations, definitions, divisions, they are playthings of the imaginary mind. I love Tolle's simple sutra from Stillness Speaks, "Here's a new spiritual practice for you. Try not to take your thoughts too seriously."

I agree with WW. There is no God check box on the non-dual application form, and nobody has to choose a label for what they are. I use the word source because I feel the universe move and it's not me doing it.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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mistral
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by mistral » Wed May 13, 2009 5:22 pm

Well Ray, if that be true then God help (no pun intended) all the majority of spiritual seekers. Non-dualism is primarily atheist. Some people like to replace "God" with "Source" or something like that but to true seekers there is no such thing. There is only you and what you see in front of you, so if anyone expects to find something like God in this search, he will find himself inconveniently without one. :evil:
[/quote]

I am sorry to hear this, I had no idea non-dualism was all about Godless-ness. Funny, for me it has been the antitheist of Godless---I have found that God is All There Is. Peeling away the layers reveals nothing else but God. If there was any thing that might be non-existent, I would say it would be ‘me’, not God. One is bumping into God at every moment and as all things, everywhere---actually you cannot get away from This Isness That is the Living One. Yes, we find ourself and In finding ourself we find God; This Ineffable Light of Truth and Reality that includes all that is and all that is not.



The God Who Only Knows

Every Child Has known God,

Not the God of names,
Not the God of don'ts
Not the God who ever does Anything weird,
But the God who only knows four words
And keeps repeating them, saying:
"Come dance with Me."
Come Dance.


In A Handful of God

Poetry reveals that there is no empty space.

When your truth forsakes its shyness,
When your fears surrender to your strengths,
You will begin to experience


That all existence
Is a teeming sea of infinite life.

In a handful of ocean water
You could not count all the finely tuned
Musicians

Who are acting stoned
For very intelligent and sane reasons

And of course are becoming extremely sweet
And wild.


In a handful of the sky and earth,
In a handful of God,


We cannot count
All the ecstatic lovers who are dancing there
Behind the mysterious veil.


True art reveals there is no void
Or darkness.


There is no loneliness to the clear-eyed mystic
In this luminous, brimming
Playful world.

(Hafiz)


Joy to the World, to all the boys and girls, joy to fishes in the deep blue sea, joy to you and me--
Much Love Everywhere, Mistral

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RCharles
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by RCharles » Wed May 13, 2009 6:45 pm

Mistral, thank you for saying that SO well, so much better than I ever could! :D

I suspect there is more to the experience of Oneness than any of us recognize. I cannot explain why, but we all seem to experience it differently even though at its core it's clearly the same. For some it is perfect peace; for others perfect god-present peace; for still others something in between or something else but still peace. Adyashanti, for example, speaks often of this experience as an experience of God, but he uses several other terms as well, which makes me think he's one of the "in-betweens."

I don't discount anyone's experience of oneness. But when that experience is tinged with something negative, I wonder if it is because God is missing. I don't mean God the concept, I mean God the experience, God the Oneness. This is just a tentative attempt to explore why some find oneness totally empty and others find it totally full.

I can't draw any conclusions; it's just speculation. I am totally open to the views of others as to why this may or may not be true. Ultimately, I suppose it's a pointless discussion because we each experience whatever we experience, and that is all the validation or understanding we need.

RC
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Thu May 14, 2009 7:56 am

Not so. Athiesm is a philosophy/concept of no God and is very much religious in nature. If you are indeed an honest truth seeker, you must allow life to be as it is. God or no God should be irrelevant to a search for truth. In the end, as in the begining, fundamental truth remains regardless of how we may perceive it. Isn't the search for truth just that, and not a search for validation of our sacred cows?
God as an intellectual concept is very different from God as Reality. Honest intellectualism will take both God, the concept, and God, the Reality into truth seeking. One should honestly ask whether God is just an intellectual concept. In the final analysis, Only Truth validates Truth. If there is no Truth in you, nothing will validate Truth for you. Self honesty is the only bit of Truth one has to begin with. Use it or waste your life seeking.

"Kingdom of Heaven is within you."

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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Thu May 14, 2009 8:06 am

Incidentally, "Love God with all your mind, all your heart and all your soul" will help you very very very much on your path of awakening. God mentioned by Jesus is not an intellectual concept.

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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Webwanderer » Thu May 14, 2009 10:25 pm

Tony, don't misunderstand. God in my world view is the Source of all life. It is the Essence from which the universe of form is generated. I have dropped my concepts of God many times and my applied curiosity has always led me back to this fundamental perspective. When one asks: what is the origin of being, it always leads back to an answer greater than my ability to perceive it. Discriptions, being conceptual in nature, will always fail. The closest I have been is an aware sense of transcendant being that becomes clearer in silence.

WW

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Thu May 14, 2009 10:52 pm

Nor there is the need to destroy the Sacredness one learned as a child to get where you are. The greatness of Jesus is that he teaches without negation.

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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Onceler » Fri May 15, 2009 1:53 am

randomguy wrote: I use the word source because I feel the universe move and it's not me doing it.
Brilliant, randomguy, that's a keeper.
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by RCharles » Fri May 15, 2009 7:25 am

WW,
The closest I have been is an aware sense of transcendant being that becomes clearer in silence.
Yes! In my ordinary mind, I still have the concept of a relationship with God, but when I experience this in meditation, God's presence is very much as you said. Transcendent compassionate being, brilliant light, perfect silence, infused into everything, the very essence of oneness.

RC
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Sat May 16, 2009 12:21 am

God is transcendent and imminent. There is no real conflict of the God in your ordinary mind and the One in your meditative mind. There is no need to maintain that artificial division. You really do not to have a meditative state and an ordinary state, but one of your egoic identity wishes to keep this division to ensure its survival.

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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by OneLove » Sat May 16, 2009 1:21 am

RCharles wrote:Yes! In my ordinary mind, I still have the concept of a relationship with God, but when I experience this in meditation, God's presence is very much as you said. Transcendent compassionate being, brilliant light, perfect silence, infused into everything, the very essence of oneness.
How can this be said? It seems way to subjective and without any proof whatsoever. God is a made up term by ego to create fear, duality. Bringing God into spirituality is just bringing a sense of "I'm doing the right thing". Are these not just wild and crazy ideas created by the ego to deny what is true? It really seems so.

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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by goman87 » Sat May 16, 2009 3:29 am

OneLove wrote:
RCharles wrote:Yes! In my ordinary mind, I still have the concept of a relationship with God, but when I experience this in meditation, God's presence is very much as you said. Transcendent compassionate being, brilliant light, perfect silence, infused into everything, the very essence of oneness.
How can this be said? It seems way to subjective and without any proof whatsoever. God is a made up term by ego to create fear, duality. Bringing God into spirituality is just bringing a sense of "I'm doing the right thing". Are these not just wild and crazy ideas created by the ego to deny what is true? It really seems so.
No it's like you're questioning a belief. Why?

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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by mistral » Sat May 16, 2009 5:00 am

For me, God is Life Itself, and I do not have any doubts that Life exists. Therefore, I know that God exists.

I can certainly see why we would all hiss and boo at the generally accepted idea or concepts of what God is. Thank God, those old definitions and misconceptions of God are being questioned. The fun of it all is that no matter how much we question the definitions God, God goes right on being God, Reality, Life.

We get riled up about the word God, but God as Fact, as Life is still Here and Now untouced and unchanged by our concepts of It. We are getting upset with the usual definitions of God, or at the generally accepted idea of God; you know, the big man in sky, sitting up there running things or whatever else we have been taught. Trashing all the incorrect ideas of God might bring us face to face with the Living Fact, Reality, God, Life Itself, but it does not seem to, we sort of miss the obvious; God goes totally unnoticed. Totally unnoticed, probably in the same way the water goes unnoticed by the fish. So close we do not see It.

It is conflicting ideas and concepts, and definiton of God that cause us problems; not God Itself. God just goes right being God, LIfe goes right on being Life. The most recently revised and updated definition of God, whatever that might be, in whatever religion it might be found, that God does not exist—and never has.

However, for me, God as God is, does exist as this very present Reality and as the undeniable basis of Existence. Truth, Reality, Fact exists because Life Is. I know Life is, because I am here Living It. Life, God is all that really does exist. I know no other Life, no other Awareness, no other Presence.

The questioning is not about Fact, the questions are all about incorrect definitions. Saying that God is a big man in the sky, is like saying 2+2 equals 5. Of course everyone wants to yell and stomp their feet and say “no, that is not right!” because it isn't right. But Reality, Life, God Is True because It Is This, , This Life is Real, Life is undenible, so God is undeniable.

The only place we can 'have' or 'create' definitons, is Here in or as or because of This Existence, Life Itself. God is the experience of Life I am. Life is a Fact, therefore I can say God is Real.

Mistral

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mistral
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Re: A Message From Shore to Ship

Post by mistral » Sun May 17, 2009 6:32 pm

I have been thinking about my last post. Although Life and God are the same, I must add this, lest I be misunderstood.

Once I got this, then everything got to be more meaningful, and the adventure here in the world got to be more of a Sweet Mystery, not less.

By living and trusting Life, this Divine Presence as All in all, it opens doors to an infinite 'journey of discovery'. In this Oneness I 'get to enjoy' the bounty and array of 'concepts, ideas, imagination, thoughts, inventions, creations, innovations, people, treasures, and all that is included within This Zero Point Unseen Light, Divine Mind, Intelligent Universe, Ineffable Godhead, Source-without-Beginning, Isness, This That Is, The I-That-I-Am.

Now, little by little, I see that there are levels, degrees, heavens and hells, but the best part is that I am not afraid to ‘say so’, Self-discovery is liberation, not restricting. All words and ideas are here for our delight. Ego is not something we get rid of, it is something to be understood, and used for our 'betterment', growing in Truth, Seeing More, becoming---you know, all ideas and concepts that are to be negated as 'unreal' when we first discover ‘non-duality’ ‘the absolute-metaphysics’, ‘Eastern thought’, ‘Subjectivism’ .

and Yes, I understand why these ideas are denied, at first, but eventually, after you put it to practice for awhile, you see there is more, or maybe that ‘something is still missing’ is a better way to say it.

So, the brave ones, move on, go forward farther with it. And in doing that we find this Higher Self that knows how to live in the world once again. But, now the world is understood, and that makes a huge difference. We begin to understand 'why' the world, and how important and wonderful the 'images within awareness' are, what it is 'for' and the purpose and meaning of our experience.

My friend William Samuel helped me with this, he calls it finding The Child. He is absolutely right about this. It is an extraordinary part that puzzle that the ‘absolutists’ are not told about. His work, his book The Child Within Us Lives! will save you a lot of angst and confusion. See his website:

http://www.williamsamuel.com/index.htm

Everything gets richer, deeper, more symbolic, not less. We start to get this intuitive ability and in That we find we can 'read' the significance behind the images, we see we are 'in a story' but such an important story that needs to be told, that has reason. Oh, I am not so good at expressing all this, but, I find Life to be sort of like two spirals that come together at the smallest ends. If I could draw here, I would show you the image. But, see in your minds eye; two spirals meeting, touching at the small ends, and then both of them spiraling out and out, wider and wider expanding into infinity.

Both spirals are God, both are one. God (being) going downward into darkness, illusion, untruth, unreality, multiplicity, confusion, imprisoned thinking, otherness, complexity, chaos, lies.

And the upward spiral as God (being) going upward into Light, Truth, Freedom, Wisdom, Liberation, Singularity, Individuality, Wholeness.

The bottom spiral is lower-mankind, duplicitous thinking, down to hell.

As we spiral up we get more and more 'enlightened' awakening to our True Identity, moving up the spiral, to the top where it gets narrow. At that point we begin to understand the Subjective Nature of God and Life and we start to move up the spiral into 'Godliness' (to put it simply).

On this upward spiral, if we do not stop at the narrow place, the first glimmer of Truth, if we do not stop at the first notions of 'oneness' and the first discovery just what the 'ego is' and how it holds us hostage to the 'lower spiral'---if do not stop there, then we go onward and upward to Real Self-Discovery, where instead of being the 'ego-man' at the base of the downward spiral,getting worse as descends--- we start to see upward there is A Genuine, Marvelous, Original, True Identity, a Real Self, as we spiral upward round and round each bend, seeing that nothing is lost, everything stays where it was 'down below' but now we can see all that 'stuff' is included in the Higher View, All inclusive View from the top….and we understand more and more as we ascend.

Like the downward spiral that goes out to infinity of darkness, so does the upward spiral go into the infinity of Light and Beauty and Truth, Reality and Genuine Identity. Our 'learning' and Expansion of Self-hood does not end.

Can you imagine what is in store for us if we keep going---Heaven on Earth, in ways we could never even dream. I think we are at a time crux when discovering our True Self is the most important thing we are here for now. Discovery of The Self, It is Here and Now and Real and we are to find it for the rest of journey upward.

And can you imagine the world if we allow the lower spiral to over take us because we are going to just sit at the ‘non-dual’ place and close our ‘mental doors’ to The Higher Self that is waiting our recognition, Now---We are to find our Self, so that This Divine Light we Really Are can and Will, Do Something Good, right, honest, True, Better, and Right and Real and Tangible Here in the and for our world.

Ok, too many words, I am sure, but I just felt I need to explain more.

Love, Mistral
Last edited by mistral on Sun May 17, 2009 9:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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