Relating with Others

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
Post Reply
jugu
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 6:35 pm

Relating with Others

Post by jugu » Fri May 08, 2009 3:34 am

Without using your past you can't relate with anyone. You can't relate in the present. You can't. It's not a paradox, it's just a simple fact.

How can being present make up for the total estrangement from your fellow human beings?

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6235
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Relating with Others

Post by Sighclone » Fri May 08, 2009 3:58 pm

Without using your past you can't relate with anyone. You can't relate in the present. You can't. It's not a paradox, it's just a simple fact.
Using your past, any relating to others will be egoic. And it might result in
the total estrangement from your fellow human beings
, depending on what your past was like.

It is only in the present moment that we can have authentic relations with anyone. All other relations are artificial and unconscious, based in the past and future, though some may be fun.

Try it. Smile unselfconsciously at a stranger...in the very present moment. See what happens. There will be a moment, however brief, of intimacy. Smiles can be portals. Relationships can be mutual, resonant experiences of unity.

The Buddhist expression of loving-kindness (maitri in Sanskrit, metta in Pali), or unconditional friendliness requires experiential understanding of Being.

I encourage you to read "Toward a Psychology of Awakening" by John Welwood, PhD. His third section is on relationships and enlightenment - it is a rare, informed commentary.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

User avatar
Webwanderer
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:03 am

Re: Relating with Others

Post by Webwanderer » Sat May 09, 2009 5:03 pm

jugu wrote:Without using your past you can't relate with anyone. You can't relate in the present. You can't. It's not a paradox, it's just a simple fact.
It's not so much about not using the past in relations with others. (One might argue that the past does not actually exist - only present memories of past events, but lets not get distracted by semantics.) It's about from what perspective does one derive one's sense of being. Is it from a mental structure of conditioned concepts and adopted beliefs? Or is it from a sense of awakened and timeless presence - now awareness? Lenses of perception built from historical perspectives may still play a role, but they are not so dominate as to take on the sense of actual identity. An awakened state transcends the assumption that thoughts represent identity.

Spinning thoughts tend to hypnotize consciousness into limiting perspectives. It is in the silence of thought-free presence awareness that clarity of being is regained. That is the "power of now" - to regain the clarity of genuine being over thought created identity. Memories of past events and experiences become more useful in relationships from presence, than from a solely mental stucture assumed as identity.

How can being present make up for the total estrangement from your fellow human beings?
It's doubtful that it can. Nor does it have to. Early in awakening it may seem so, but after a time of honest integration engagement with life usually returns. Awakening is a valuable component in this physical environment, but it does not trump the value in developing quality relationships. The purists may cringe at such statements, but that's the view from here.

WW

HermitLoon
Posts: 686
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 7:57 pm
Location: Good Question

Re: Relating with Others

Post by HermitLoon » Sat May 09, 2009 5:29 pm

Yes WW! :D
Peace

goman87
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 10:53 pm

Re: Relating with Others

Post by goman87 » Sat May 09, 2009 10:48 pm

jugu wrote:Without using your past you can't relate with anyone. You can't relate in the present. You can't. It's not a paradox, it's just a simple fact.

How can being present make up for the total estrangement from your fellow human beings?
I really like this part of being.

jugu
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 6:35 pm

Re: Relating with Others

Post by jugu » Sun May 10, 2009 12:42 am

But lets get real here, if we're living in the moment here, everything is perfect, nothing needs to be discussed. There is literally no reason to talk to each other. It just screams indifference. How can we really show that we care for each other without expression?

Please, in short, concise and direct words.

goman87
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 10:53 pm

Re: Relating with Others

Post by goman87 » Sun May 10, 2009 3:20 am

We feel those emotions. We express them. I don't know if everything is perfect, i'll not worry about things. Right now.

User avatar
mistral
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:58 pm

Re: Relating with Others

Post by mistral » Sun May 10, 2009 3:51 am

look with Me from this High Place.
With the same eye that beheld the axe
now view the Kingdom!
Look to the East.
The sun has risen!
where morning dew glistens.
North! South! All you see here,
as far as you envision here,
is the Kingdom I give you today!

Now, lift up your eye and see
the simple sparrow there,
the soaring swallow,
the sun, the stars.
Everything you see there--
everything envisioned here--
is your very own.

Now, listen to the sounds, Beloved--
whispering wind, laughing children,
distant notes proclaiming NOW your Sabbath.
Sounds, too, are my Kingdom, dear one,
and I give you them all today.

Next, with the inner eye
look at everything childlikeness allows.
Envision the oceans,
the sands, the multitudes,
fair fields of fragrant flowers,
oaks unsown in future seasons,
distant mountains higher yet than this.
These, too, are yours, my Son!
Yea, all you see here,
as far as you envision here,
is the Kingdom you are this day.

Listen. Listen and hear!
Even now you are the only Awareness
that views this Holy Place!
All you see is the Selfhood you be!
You are this minute
the Holy Witness of Me.
You have naught left to do
but gird up thy loins
and accept they rightful Identity!

Now, deck thyself with majesty and excellency!
Array thyself with glory and beauty!
Thine own right hand
holding Truth’s Scepter
hath saved thee!
From this moment forth, view all things
from the standpoint of Perfection
because thou alone are the King!
Dominion is given you this day!
Yea I say,
be the single Selfhood and reign!
Reign, King of all creation.


An excerpt from "The Woodcutter and The King"

Mistral

jugu
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 6:35 pm

Re: Relating with Others

Post by jugu » Sun May 10, 2009 8:19 am

mistral wrote:look with Me from this High Place.
With the same eye that beheld the axe
now view the Kingdom!
Look to the East.
The sun has risen!
where morning dew glistens.
North! South! All you see here,
as far as you envision here,
is the Kingdom I give you today!

Now, lift up your eye and see
the simple sparrow there,
the soaring swallow,
the sun, the stars.
Everything you see there--
everything envisioned here--
is your very own.

Now, listen to the sounds, Beloved--
whispering wind, laughing children,
distant notes proclaiming NOW your Sabbath.
Sounds, too, are my Kingdom, dear one,
and I give you them all today.

Next, with the inner eye
look at everything childlikeness allows.
Envision the oceans,
the sands, the multitudes,
fair fields of fragrant flowers,
oaks unsown in future seasons,
distant mountains higher yet than this.
These, too, are yours, my Son!
Yea, all you see here,
as far as you envision here,
is the Kingdom you are this day.

Listen. Listen and hear!
Even now you are the only Awareness
that views this Holy Place!
All you see is the Selfhood you be!
You are this minute
the Holy Witness of Me.
You have naught left to do
but gird up thy loins
and accept they rightful Identity!

Now, deck thyself with majesty and excellency!
Array thyself with glory and beauty!
Thine own right hand
holding Truth’s Scepter
hath saved thee!
From this moment forth, view all things
from the standpoint of Perfection
because thou alone are the King!
Dominion is given you this day!
Yea I say,
be the single Selfhood and reign!
Reign, King of all creation.


An excerpt from "The Woodcutter and The King"
Nice excrept but it's totally unrelated!

jugu
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun May 18, 2008 6:35 pm

Re: Relating with Others

Post by jugu » Sun May 10, 2009 8:24 am

goman87 wrote: i'll not worry about things. Right now.
The philosophy of most seekers! Put the important details aside until later.
Sighclone wrote: I encourage you to read "Toward a Psychology of Awakening" by John Welwood, PhD. His third section is on relationships and enlightenment - it is a rare, informed commentary.
No more spiritual books! The only good ones are the simple ones. Nis and Ramana, Ryokan. The rest are just grand distractions. The truth can be discussed right now with all that we have. We don't need any other material.

User avatar
mistral
Posts: 330
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:58 pm

Re: Relating with Others

Post by mistral » Sun May 10, 2009 9:25 am

No, it’s not totally unrelated.

I shared that Beautiful piece with you, thinking it might wake you up to Identity, Reality. That Self is as open and free and liberated, completely unafraid of Life as ever anyone could wish for. I thought that you might recognize the Self that is Being The Already Is that is Within you. The Light of Truth that resides in 'everyman'. The Identity I Am which is God's and God's alone. That One is who you are, and It is full of riches and wonders and It sees Itself in all Life as It Is All It sees. This is holy land, but apparently you have missed that, so I thought some Light on the Love that Is might awaken your heart to Its Own Beauty, and Joy, and Mystery and Wonder and Delight That is in EVERYTHING I AM ( you are). The journey is about finding and living Your Real Identity. God knows what God is, now you just have to accept and Be What You Are. KNowing knows that all that God Is is seeing Itself right here and now. How can you say there is no relationship between God and God's Awareness and the Images within Awareness. There is only one Self, God ItsSelf, Life, This That Is. The Awareness that reads these words is God's Awareness, no other. The I That I Am Is in Relationship with Itself and not separate or apart from anyone or anything. That 'person' you cannot relate to Is Your Self appearing 'out there'.

What you See is what you Be. and What you BE is what you see.

Mistral

User avatar
RCharles
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:23 am
Location: Northern California -- Sierra Nevada Mountains

Re: Relating with Others

Post by RCharles » Sun May 10, 2009 7:03 pm

Jugu,

Let's get real here. Of course we bring our past to every relationship and conversation, even when we are present. If we are truly present, we are not controlled by that past, but we are aware of it, we have learned from it, we have knowledge and experience from it, and we have a personality derived from it that we bring to the present. Being present does not make us some sort of robot whose memory has been erased. (Not trying to be unkind, just direct and to the point. :) )

Charles
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

HermitLoon
Posts: 686
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 7:57 pm
Location: Good Question

Re: Relating with Others

Post by HermitLoon » Sun May 10, 2009 11:22 pm

Thanks RC :D

All pointing points only at/to the pointer - and all/none are "real".

Peace and Joy

(BTW I used to live just outside Placerville)
Peace

User avatar
Onceler
Posts: 2245
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:35 am
Location: My house

Re: Relating with Others

Post by Onceler » Sun May 10, 2009 11:40 pm

HermitLoon wrote:
(BTW I used to live just outside Placerville)
Got it, HL, brilliant.
Be present, be pleasant.

sevenworlds
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:12 am

Re: Relating with Others

Post by sevenworlds » Mon May 11, 2009 2:06 am

RCharles wrote:Jugu,

Let's get real here. Of course we bring our past to every relationship and conversation, even when we are present. If we are truly present, we are not controlled by that past, but we are aware of it, we have learned from it, we have knowledge and experience from it, and we have a personality derived from it that we bring to the present. Being present does not make us some sort of robot whose memory has been erased. (Not trying to be unkind, just direct and to the point. :) )

Charles
It depends what you mean by 'present'. If you are bringing the past to a conversation - other than the words - then are you really present? By that I mean are you carrying an image? I might be talking to my dad. The word 'dad' and the image/idea 'dad' are two separate things. The word 'dad' becomes just like any other word when we are natural. That means I might refer to him as that (I have to call him something) but if the image is not there then that conversation should be totally fresh. There is no room for any relationship and so I might say something to him that a son isn't expected to say to his dad. That freedom has to be there otherwise it's not the real thing. It's not a case of being a robot in the sense you don't remember but you don't forget. How it works is a mystery. Somehow my history with my dad is recorded but each time I meet him it is fresh and if something of our past is pulled out in conversation, it happens spontaneously and without image around it. That is the intelligence of life. Somehow it knows in each moment how to deal with the person you are engaged with, but for people to let go enough to that point is scary because that freedom is unlimited - you really don't know what will come out of your mouth!

Post Reply