Relating with Others

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HermitLoon
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by HermitLoon » Wed May 13, 2009 4:30 pm

:D
Peace

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Sighclone
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by Sighclone » Wed May 13, 2009 9:21 pm

Seven -

As far as I am concerned, you are a welcome member of this forum. Yes, you had a little scuffle with James. All very civil, all within the Rules. I'm sorry to hear you say you don't want to be here.

Your points about synchronicity and recognizing that there is no "doer" of things are, in my opinion, advanced observations, and well supported by one of my current favorites (and they do change :) ), Gary Weber...and others.

It is not a requirement to be enlightened to post here. It is not even a requirement to like enlightenment. Your favorite teacher UGK happens to be my least favorite -- this is not to say I think he is a phony, or wrong. I just don't like his style.

And that is what remains after awakening. A mind/body style...a set of behaviors, habits, skills and experiences inherited from our unconscious early years. Eckhart was an intellectual and a scholar of comparative languages -- stuff that is close to my heart. Leonard Jacobsen, another whose style I don't resonate with, was a lawyer. Are these mind/bodies wrong?? Of course not.

Thank you for remaining active here!

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by Webwanderer » Thu May 14, 2009 2:16 pm

sevenworlds wrote:You realise things just happen TO you and you realise things were ALWAYS happening to you even when you strongly believed you were in control. So you flow along, taking whatever comes without struggle.
What arises is a comparison to a kayaker moving down a rough and tumble stream. While the course of the steam is beyond his control and will take him where it will, an aware presence and skillful choices may help him avoid crashing into the rocks. What otherwise may have been a terrifying cascade down a treacherous river, may become an enjoyable adventure in harmony with conditions. To say there is no control of the river may be accurate, to say there is no control at all not so much.

I suspect you make lots of choices everyday (whatever that you is that you constantly refer to) as everyone does, that you have formed a unique perspective that allows you to negotiate life in a tollerable way that is free from most of the emotional turmoil that a spinning mind often gins up. It has distinct advantages over the blindness of pure ego.
OneLove wrote:If any honest seeker was severely threatened by his rants they must seriously reconsider their position. Ramana :) provided the only true method of doing so:
Who has the problem with jugu?
Who is being offended?
Who is in discordance?
Who holds contempt?
Whos beliefs are being threatened?
Who is becoming afraid?
...Enlightenment requires no intellectualization, it requires no extravagant theories, it requires no dilly dallying . It takes genuine intent and determination:
From whom? Intent and determination manifests in choices. What is it that makes these choices? If it feels like a self, and walks like a self - could it be a self? Maybe not the mind created identity of labels and concepts, but a sense of being with a capacity for volition none-the-less.

WW

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by Glycine » Thu May 14, 2009 3:03 pm

Most of the last posts are basically asking: "Is there free will?"
Tough question.

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by sevenworlds » Thu May 14, 2009 4:08 pm

Thanks Andy.

It's not that UG is my favourite teacher, because he also has to be discarded. My likes/dislikes, or programming, is still different to his. He was the first I'd come across who told it like it was in straight, plain, everyday language and told me I didn't have to change. All I'd heard before that from Tolle and others like Icke, was a similar sort of 'spiritual language'. I used to think, surely everyone who goes through this can't all end up using this vague, flowery, spiritual jargon?
Webwanderer wrote:I suspect you make lots of choices everyday (whatever that you is that you constantly refer to) as everyone does, that you have formed a unique perspective that allows you to negotiate life in a tollerable way that is free from most of the emotional turmoil that a spinning mind often gins up. It has distinct advantages over the blindness of pure ego.
It's very easy for thought to put up a barrier saying "anyone can tell themselves there is no-one doing anything". Well, why don't you? Try it. You'll find out it actually is that easy. So simple we miss it everytime. The fear is that you won't do what you want. I saw a talk with Eckhart once where someone had written to him saying "I feel so joyful now but all I feel like doing is lying in bed all day". Eckhart responded "I don't see a problem". If you let go completely, you may well end up doing very little for a while and that is the fear. To want is to think. You may no longer get to do what you want but you will never be unhappy.

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by James » Thu May 14, 2009 5:15 pm

sevenworlds
You make a lot of good points, and I think you have a talent for expressing yourself with words.

You wrote:
It's very easy for thought to put up a barrier saying "anyone can tell themselves there is no-one doing anything". Well, why don't you? Try it. You'll find out it actually is that easy. So simple we miss it everytime. The fear is that you won't do what you want. I saw a talk with Eckhart once where someone had written to him saying "I feel so joyful now but all I feel like doing is lying in bed all day". Eckhart responded "I don't see a problem". If you let go completely, you may well end up doing very little for a while and that is the fear. To want is to think. You may no longer get to do what you want but you will never be unhappy.
You mentioned that aside from UGK, Papaji and Mooji have been influential to you. I am fond of Papaji and Mooji too. Both of them used/use inquiry, the method handed down from Ramana, as an ongoing way of investigating thinking. I was wondering if you have used or use inquiry? It can be very helpful in separating the wheat from the chaff, the little i from the true I.

The example you gave above about the person lying in bed all day; I think it would be important to find out where that is coming from. Is it their true nature to lie in bed all day? Or is it something else, perhaps avoidance, fear or a blockage of some sort? Are these thoughts or ideas generated by the conceptual "i" and taken as reality; a misidentification. Or are they are an expression of impersonal "I"? To whom do these thoughts arise? There may not be a literal answer to the question, but it may come as a natural stillness, felt oneness or realization.

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by Sighclone » Thu May 14, 2009 5:51 pm

When wind blows a leaf, it moves.

So how do we distinguish a divine nudge from an egoic impulse? After awakening, there are no more egoic impulses. On the path, I believe there are more of the former, and fewer of the latter, and the difference becomes clearer.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by sevenworlds » Thu May 14, 2009 6:03 pm

Hi James,

The lying in bed is fact, it is actual. The thought "should I be lying in bed?" is an abstraction placed on top of that. It doesn't really have anything to do with what is happening now. You are lying in bed. If you don't like it, get up. Pondering to yourself whether you should is meaningless. To turn it around the other way, have you ever tried to say to yourself "I am going to sit here and do nothing all day". Can you do it? Something will make you move, even if it is only to get some food or answer the phone.

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by OneLove » Thu May 14, 2009 9:13 pm

Sighclone wrote:So how do we distinguish a divine nudge from an egoic impulse?
They are both the same! It's all the same, non-dual. What do you mean by divine Sighclone?

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by Webwanderer » Thu May 14, 2009 10:02 pm

seven wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:I suspect you make lots of choices everyday (whatever that you is that you constantly refer to) as everyone does, that you have formed a unique perspective that allows you to negotiate life in a tollerable way that is free from most of the emotional turmoil that a spinning mind often gins up. It has distinct advantages over the blindness of pure ego.

It's very easy for thought to put up a barrier saying "anyone can tell themselves there is no-one doing anything". Well, why don't you? Try it. You'll find out it actually is that easy. So simple we miss it everytime. The fear is that you won't do what you want. I saw a talk with Eckhart once where someone had written to him saying "I feel so joyful now but all I feel like doing is lying in bed all day". Eckhart responded "I don't see a problem". If you let go completely, you may well end up doing very little for a while and that is the fear. To want is to think. You may no longer get to do what you want but you will never be unhappy.
Thanks for the suggestion seven, but I've been there and done that. It tends to be a bit more Zombie like than I care for. Presence persists in common with a more active engagement. It's a bit of a delicate balance, and takes some getting used to, but it's a lot more interesting. To each his own I guess.

WW

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by Sighclone » Fri May 15, 2009 7:08 am

Enlightened masters speak about the absence of conscious will to action on their part. If there is no "me" to act, then there is no volition. But there is certainly action...we just don't make it happen as an act of will. A nudge from Being, from Presence is "divine." An impulse to buy a new Jaguar is likely to be from the ego, and is a different kind of nudge.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by sevenworlds » Fri May 15, 2009 12:07 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Thanks for the suggestion seven, but I've been there and done that. It tends to be a bit more Zombie like than I care for. Presence persists in common with a more active engagement. It's a bit of a delicate balance, and takes some getting used to, but it's a lot more interesting. To each his own I guess.
I don't think you have. Most likely you tried it with the thought "if this doesn't work I'll go back to how I was". Which means you didn't try it at all. You can't try it anyway. It happens to you. You don't need to change a single thing about what you call your life as it is, this will re-arrange the circumstances accordingly and you might not have any choice in active engagement. Probably I've said enough...

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by Webwanderer » Fri May 15, 2009 2:25 pm

sevenworlds wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:Thanks for the suggestion seven, but I've been there and done that. It tends to be a bit more Zombie like than I care for. Presence persists in common with a more active engagement. It's a bit of a delicate balance, and takes some getting used to, but it's a lot more interesting. To each his own I guess.
I don't think you have. Most likely you tried it with the thought "if this doesn't work I'll go back to how I was". Which means you didn't try it at all. You can't try it anyway. It happens to you. You don't need to change a single thing about what you call your life as it is, this will re-arrange the circumstances accordingly and you might not have any choice in active engagement. Probably I've said enough...
"You" don't think I have? Who is this you that thinks? Didn't you say that you didn't exist? Yet this non-existant you continues to refer to itself as if it were real. Curious.
That same you that you claim doesn't exist also seems to speculate a great deal on things it could no nothing about. I wonder how such speculation could arise without an imaginary comparison and judgment on another's experience. I presume it's just thoughts arising in consciousness. However, If that's true then it's also true of all comments from all posters who seem to disagree. It does makes for an interesting dynamic of life relating to itself. Enjoy.

WW

ps: Something else of interest arises in consciousness. Over in another thread you give Tony S-Ma dire warnings because he challenges your comments. If there is no you, nor a Tony, to whom are your comments directed? And why would they need to be in the form of a warning? Is someone in danger? You said you have seen this impending disaster before. It implies a "trust me" kind of attitude. Do you really thing anyone should take another's word over their own direct experience? Curious indeed.

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by goman87 » Sat May 16, 2009 12:59 am

Sighclone wrote:Enlightened masters speak about the absence of conscious will to action on their part. If there is no "me" to act, then there is no volition. But there is certainly action...we just don't make it happen as an act of will. A nudge from Being, from Presence is "divine." An impulse to buy a new Jaguar is likely to be from the ego, and is a different kind of nudge.

Namaste, Andy
I would say you're speaking of soul.

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Re: Relating with Others

Post by OneLove » Sat May 16, 2009 1:33 am

Sighclone wrote: A nudge from Being, from Presence is "divine." An impulse to buy a new Jaguar is likely to be from the ego, and is a different kind of nudge.
So inspiration from that special "something else" is divine? This just seems like a divisive term dubbed by ego to propel itself to merge with this divine "something else". Kind of like holy/unholy, spiritual/unspiritual, present/absence, good/bad. If it's all divine, all one, ego included, why make a change from "ego" based to "non-ego based" conciousness. They both exist in the moment, they both function the same, they both are propelled by source, being or God. Why make a distinction between the two? They are both the same, ego and non-ego, both conciousness. Doesn't rejecting ego and preffering non-ego conciousness seem egoic in nature?

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