Relating with Others

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lucy
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by lucy » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:39 pm

I hear what you are saying James, and it makes sense to the mind. I would have to argue though that the training wheels re-enforce the very thing that obscures the truth from being realized. "Being" is not a skill, to treat it as such only re-enforces that it is. We are not born with the skill of riding a bike, but do we have to acquire any skill to simply "BE"?

Tara
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by Tara » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:12 pm

James wrote:I agree with Shappy on this idea of acceptance. Acceptance requires effort just as rejecting does, and reinforces the notion of a separate me that can accept or reject.

Yet the practice of acceptance has value, it is like a simulated pointer, we could compare it to training wheels on a bike, eventually we get a feel for what it is like to ride a bike and the training wheels come off. So too in the beginning the practice of acceptance gives a simulated sense of being in the flow of life. So we ride around the block for a while, practicing accepting what is; until it dawns on us and we get the joke, and see that "I" and "Me" don't really exist as a separate entity. There's no one here to accept or reject, just Life living itself, unimpeded, without stories and interpretations.

It's always been this way, it's just overlooked and veiled by thought. Thought made the game of separation possible; now thought is rediscovering that separation was never true. Thought can stop pretending now. That is freedom.

james
Hi James,
As I was reading the posts on this sight, the ones with descriptive/illustrations or stories, I can relate and say I understand more and then someone posts how any "attempt" at acceptance, seeing doing etc is still not true being but you say it is like a pointer and can help. Is this the road many take? The leap from "practicing" to being un-veiled seems blocked in my mind when everyone says it is actually always there...will it be an aha moment???lol

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mistral
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by mistral » Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:15 pm

Being is not a skill, but to ‘be’ is a skill. Life is the River and It is Being It very well, but learning how to Flow with This River does take practice. The River is Here and we cannot be outside this River, but we can get stuck in all kinds of swirling eddy’s or we can live on the River floating despartely as we try clinging to the branches floating by. Some will try to stop right above the rapids hoping in desperation not to have to ride them. Some love the rapids, and take them with glee, crashing into the rocks, tumbling in white water, enjoying the whole holy adventure. But, that takes skill. and Skill takes practice at every new twist and turn that looms along the Rivers Journey, we can learn. We can hone our skill, learning how to balance our raft and ride over the falls with grace and beauty. Riding the River; It is a skill, and we do have to practice how best to navigate this Glorious Wondrous River. We soon realize we are not going to avoid being in This River, and that we can suffer a great deal when we try to avoid It. After a long time the River we learn Its ways, we learn to Trust It, and then to Love It, then we are not afraid to practice the balance and grace it takes to truly ride It well.

Love, Misral

James
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by James » Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:51 pm

Hi Tara
For some reason, who really knows why, it is the nature of thought to seek, search, try to understand, create a process and have practices. I can only speak from my own experience and say that sometimes the practices dropped me into Being, giving a temporary taste of my true nature, and other times they were a struggle, reinforcing personal sense.

Yes we can say there is no doer so give up practices, but thought won't give up its practices until it is ready to do so, until it has exhausted all its avenues and possibilities. Thought may even make a practice of Non doing. And sometimes the practices simply bring us to the place of exhaustion, in which we finally experience the futility of trying.

In the case of acceptance, I found many moments of freedom and ease, a flow of life, which was very familiar and I knew it to be my natural state. But there were many situations and conditions that I as a little me, was simply unable to accept. So as I see it, if accepting has any value, it is because when one is actually living in non resistance, they are fully present, in their natural state of being.

I think acceptance is just one of those pointers to Being, a pointer which may or may not be helpful, depending on the individual. If the practices serve you and seem beneficial, keep doing what feels comfortable that which you are inclined to do, knowing that the inevitable "trajectory" is that eventually none of them will work anymore. Like every thing they run their course, in their own way. The end of all paths is the recognition that we were never a separate entity; thought was playing a game and pretending, thought can be very convincing in that way.

See through thought to one's true nature that is always present, and in that realization there is no effort to accept or reject... Just life living itself in all of its ways. There's no need to get rid of thoughts or change them; inquire and see through thinking to that which always, already is. Some may call this surrender, or no effort, or no self, it does not matter what it is called, the words are mere approximations; all words are limiting. This is nothing special and very ordinary, and probably a familiar home to all. Thought likes to make "awakening" into something special, a superhuman, exalted state that hopefully will be attained in the future. There again, that is just the nature of thought to conceptualize everything and interpret through beliefs and conditioning.

In this childlike simplicity and unknowing, there lies freedom in the flow of life, a beauty and a richness... paradoxically existing and not existing.

That's about all I can say at the moment. The more I talk about it the further I feel I am moving from Truth, and the greater the chance of misinterpreting.

Take Care

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

lucy
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by lucy » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:39 pm

mistral wrote: Life is the River and It is Being It very well, but learning how to Flow with This River does take practice
You are life. What is it that needs to learn to flow with the river?

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mistral
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by mistral » Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:31 am

Yes Lucy you are very right ---You are Life Itself--- but it seems to take us eons to realize it---You have realized it and that is wonderful, but coming to Know your True Self had to found by you and you alone and only you. This 'Life Itself' seems to include the journey of 'Self Discovery' in Its beingness---You know how even little kids want to find out for themselves, you cannot just tell them the bug has tickely fur, they have to see for themselves--It is wonderful that you have proven The Truth for you and You know It and Live It--- and you know that that came 'precept upon precept, here a little there a little. For all of us hasn't this always been the case? Even when we were learning the multiplication tables, we studied and tried for so long to understand it all, then one day we got it and the getting It was an inside job, a very personal and intimate action within our self. You know when this happens! The heart knows and says, 'Now I understand.' and It is honestly and truely forever YOURS, all yours. When the Truth that you ARE Life It Self comes real and true to you it is very personal and real---now you know you know---not just hearing about it, reading about it--- you Know. No matter how many times someone tells another It is Already Done, already Who you ARE, that person still has to make it his own--we have got to find it for ourself --there is no other way to really Know and know you know and hence to honestly Understand and Live By Its Ways. You and I would certainly not wish to tell others 'about it' and have them be satisfied with the telling---no, we would want for them to say "oh, really, wow, perhaps I can leap into this and Prove It for My Self---"Prove Me Now Here With" Saith the Lord--- We are here to Prove It. We are here to Be the Living Proof of It---It is the paradox that everyone talks about; we are It, but we have to find out that we are It. The next realization comes with the answer to "why it is this way" and that one is a deep and grand Marvel also.

Love, Mistral

lucy
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by lucy » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:22 pm

Hi Mistral,

I do get what you are saying, but what I am trying to point to and others on this form have also pointed to is that: Realization did not come about because of anything I did. If anything, the practice of meditation kept me chained to the idea of "me". For years, I tried hard not to accumulate any karma by trying to be a good person. I'm mot saying these things don't have any value, I'm saying they did not lead to Realization/Awakening here.

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mistral
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by mistral » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:27 pm

Lucy, now I see what you are saying. Yes, I agree with you. I have never meditated a day in my life---That is not what my 'word' for "practice" means. Practice to me means actually living it in our everyday situations---putting or Realizations to Work. Doing It, Put it to the Test, she if It is True; Living That Realization takes practice.

We just cannot avoid LIfe (we are It, all in all) and so many little things come up all day long. Let us say I cannot stand my job but I have 'discovered' "I Am Life!!" Well, now I have to put that 'new insight' into practice in my daily world by saying "oh, If I Am Life, then Life is All I Am and All includes where I work and what I do with my hours in the day", then it 'makes no differnece' Its all All Right with God The One Being The Awareness where all 'happens'. So it makes no 'any how' where I am working or what I am doing'' to This That Is being All That I am---The Transformation is Within my Heart and when I see that there is no 'other job or no 'other place to be to make me happy---That Happiness does not come to us by way of a different job or any job, or changing the scene ---Happiness Is God Itself and their is No Other One Here---' or what ever it is that you realize about 'the you and the job' situation in the Light Truth as you know It---now baseing my 'way of living and seeing' on this "new found View of Allness of Life and God being all That is and All That I am and all that anyone is". This 'practice' comes with just about everything---Maybe Life Itself is the Practice, or certainly the opportunity to 'practice' and Prove It.

One time some kids came in my shop and they hung around and they were being odd and when they left they had taken over $500 worth of very cool jewelry. I was at first furious, indignant, and my 'human rational' said I must call their parents so they can be shamed and scolded and return my stuff, learn a lesson blah blah blah... Well, then, I felt this horrible sense of doom and darkness, somthing telling me I was on the wrong track--- and I stopped, and I said "Wait a minute here!" Those kids and that stuff' all 'belongs to God' and all of it, the whole scene is made of all pure God LIght and the 'stuff' is the Nothingness of Images in My Holy Awareness, Nothing is gone, nothing is ever lost, nothing can go outside of this One Awareness that is being all Things; stealer, thieves, jewelry, money, income, whatever I call 'bad' or 'good' is still all Goodness and Light no matter what the images 'say'. I saw the theft as really nothing at all; there can be no theft because God cannot take from Itself---Love, Love is All That Really matters and what else really matters here is that I Am Love and Love is the bottom line and Love is not altered or changed by 'so called thieves' by images on screen so to speak---and the Love I Am will continue to Love Life for all That It Is and The Wonders that It shows to me; including the 'scene of kids taking my stuff'---It was funny, and I started to laugh, feeling the laughter of God; for me, for them, for whole silly meaningless event--- One can realize 'Oneness' but I have to Test Myself and See If I can Live It honestly, so the Practice is that I always return to this one and only place ( and I know it sounds hokey to everyone) but I always come back to this basic Truth "God is All in all and there is nothing else going on here'---Is God stealing from God? Of course not (or whatever the situation may be). That Truth is huge for me and It saves me every time, But I have to Be Honest and I have to really Live IT---I cannot just say it, I must put it into my actions as I understand what that Really Means. It means it makes no differnece who has the jewelry, where it went, who took it, who got taken from, or any of that---It means I must honestly SEE The Truth of this Fact.

When I really did see It clear, I was so relieved, so over joyed, so peaceful , so in Awe of This Beauty that has found Me and allowed me to be able to live in this world without being 'clobbered' by it. The tears of Joy were cleansing and pure. And, no I never got the stuff back, and I never did anything about It---But, the whole episode had been worth every penny of it.

Now, having seen this is such a real and honest slamming up close to Reality way--- I am transformed by the Honesty. I could care less if someone comes in and steals from me---honest to the soul of me---I saw something that day; I saw thta the Authority and Power and Dominion is Here A I, not in things and this has been a transforming insight, put to practice, lived and Proven True. And now, to this day, no one has ever taken anything from my little shop, not one thing---Authority Is Here A I not out there in 'things' or 'others'. Somehow the Love I saw that day, the insight that came to me, The Grace that provided the wisdom and Lilght of the Truth that I put to practice and lived, has proven Itself in my life to be the one and only way to live. The Insight on that subject of 'theft' was so crystal clear to me that it was like a prayer that released so much 'old human conditioning' and allowed for Something So Profoundly MORE than 'things and money' would ever be. Something Divine and sacred was given to me that day. That is the kind of practice I am talking about.

Now, these years later, long time putting Honesty to Practice, years of living and Proving Its Wonders, now it comes very easy for me, but years ago I had to 'work It' in order to Live It. Sometimes, when the road gets rough;someone dies; tough stuff, major things--- I must go back to the basics, put them to practice, and Know all the 'reasons why' Everything is Alright despite the 'picture of loss'---I need to see 'why' there is no death, and that we are not 'the body' and all those things--- I still need to turn to the Light and get my barings, sometimes, to find my balance again, as much as I have come to understand, I still need to live in the world and put to "practice' the Infinite Allness I Am. Re-member, Re-mind My Self. Even at this forum, each of us trying to write what we see, but being mis-understood, or saying it poorly, or being upset with another persons 'personality' ---we each have to put to practice what we have come up against so that we can let go and breath and understand The Real Truth once again and not let the 'words' get us down or do us in or whatever else the 'old conditioning' would want to do battle with--- Honesty allows us to let it go---that is putting the realizations to practice.

Life is like the Divine Discipline---I do not need to 'have a practice or sit and meditate' because ---Life will give me all I need and more. Life is the Divine Teacher Itself. Embrace It, Trust It all and It shows us the Way. That is the Proving and Living and Finding the balance, the Practice that I am talking about.

Love, Misral
Last edited by mistral on Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

randomguy
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by randomguy » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:33 am

lucy wrote:"Being" is not a skill, to treat it as such only re-enforces that it is. We are not born with the skill of riding a bike, but do we have to acquire any skill to simply "BE"?
Yes, this is along the lines of what I intended to communicate. Being or pure awareness always is. Our true nature just is. It is not learned, it is recognized. Once found, for lack of a better explanation, there is a felt sense of recognition. What obscures this recognition? In my experience, it is Identification with thought. Empowering and believing thought perpetuates an imaginary, emotionally involved experience that diverges from a natural state entirely surrendered to reality.

What has been expressed in this thread that feels less than true to my experience, is an opinion or conclusion that there is nothing to be done about identification with thought. Is this an accurate interpretation?

Would it have been more helpful for Tolle to level with his audience and have written instead a book entitled, "The Power of 'There is Nothing You Can Do"?

I'm taking a stab here. Does the logic go something like this? Who is doing something about thought identification? "You" are. It is known that "you" is a false concept and any attempt or action taken by the false "you" is also false. Therefore, there is nothing to be done.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

James
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by James » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:33 am

Randomguy wrote:
Yes, this is along the lines of what I intended to communicate. Being or pure awareness always is. Our true nature just is. It is not learned, it is recognized. Once found, for lack of a better explanation, there is a felt sense of recognition. What obscures this recognition? In my experience, it is Identification with thought. Empowering and believing thought perpetuates an imaginary, emotionally involved experience that diverges from a natural state entirely surrendered to reality.

What has been expressed in this thread that feels less than true to my experience, is an opinion or conclusion that there is nothing to be done about identification with thought. Is this an accurate interpretation?
Good points randomguy,
Any so called practice including inquiry we could say is for the sake of "thought" (Lately I prefer the word thought over mind, because it impersonalizes it, the error is no particular mind, but is just the nature of thought as I spoke of in my last post in this thread). So Being does not need to learn how to Be, but thought needs to be educated or reoriented, until it is clear to thought that the identity/entity thought creates (the mind made me), does not really exist. Ramana referred to this as using a thorn to remove a thorn. In Christian Mysticism they rely heavily on contemplation more than inquiry, which can also work, (Mistral can probably relate to that).

For example Christian mystics may use passages from scripture such as "I and the Father are one" (in modern vernacular I and the Source are one), or "The Father within does the works" and "I of my own self can do nothing". The contemplation is just the jumping off point; the idea is to be still afterwards, (Be still and know that I am God, the I Am of my Being). The contemplation quiets the mind, so that the mind gets it now, and assumes its rightful place as an instrument. I would say what Tolle does is more along the lines of contemplation of truth. I don't hear him speak of inquiry, although he often talks of seeing through thought or noticing how thoughts work, which is inquiry on a subtle level.

The pitfall to any practice including contemplation and inquiry is that one may adopt an identity through that practice, i.e. I am inquiring, I am a meditator, I am a contemplative, I am on a spiritual path, I am an aspirant. Since the nature of thought is to seek, and attain, then seeking keeps thought in business. Inquiry can be misused as new way to control, manipulate or attain something, (in this case a lofty goal of enlightenment). Using the thorn analogy, once the thorn is removed, no more effort is needed, to remove anything. Unless one steps on another thorn :lol: The way I see it, the sooner one gets the thorn out (realizes they don't exist as a separate entity), the better off they are. Seeking and suffering usually go hand and hand, so why not be done with seeking as soon as possible, and let Life live itself. I do realize that the whole thing is a mystery, and each individual can only awaken in their own time and way.

Really all of this is a divine dance, even thought with its misunderstandings, and misperceptions, which are truly innocent. Thought plays the game well, the hide and seek, the pretending; the role playing. We come to Nirvana through Samsara. In other words we stop and rest in Being, after thought discovers what illusion or the dream sense is. The fabricated sense of separation is seen for what it is.

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

shappy
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by shappy » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:02 am

randomguy,

I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that everything that is happening is happening despite there being a "you". I don't know if that's a good way of saying it.

The thing is, all of it has to go. I used to have a meditation that I would do and it would help me relax and slow down the thoughts a bit. But I can't find any sanctuary at all anymore, even in this meditation. There is nothing really there to hold on to. It's not a pleasant feeling. I can't even say anything about it. I mean, I can try, but it just doesn't go anywhere. It's just there despite anything I do or don't do (even despite my best efforts to get rid of it!)

randomguy
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by randomguy » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:45 am

james wrote:The pitfall to any practice including contemplation and inquiry is that one may adopt an identity through that practice, i.e. I am inquiring, I am a meditator, I am a contemplative, I am on a spiritual path, I am an aspirant.
Isn't it this way with anything? For example, I'm a kick-butt mountain-biker (kidding). Inquiry is doing like tying shoes is doing. Doing with no frustration, expectation, anticipation, or attachment of any kind is just doing, isn't it? Brush your teeth, gums remain healthy. Perform inquiry, mind remains resilient to thought identification.
shappy wrote:I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that everything that is happening is happening despite there being a "you". I don't know if that's a good way of saying it.
I follow that. Byron Katie says we are being lived.
shappy, have you listened to "True Meditation" by Adyashanti? It is what is currently working for me when I get sucked back into imagination-land.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

James
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Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:06 pm

Re: Relating with Others

Post by James » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:03 pm

From randomguy's post
james wrote:
The pitfall to any practice including contemplation and inquiry is that one may adopt an identity through that practice, i.e. I am inquiring, I am a meditator, I am a contemplative, I am on a spiritual path, I am an aspirant.

randomguy: Isn't it this way with anything? For example, I'm a kick-butt mountain-biker (kidding). Inquiry is doing like tying shoes is doing. Doing with no frustration, expectation, anticipation, or attachment of any kind is just doing, isn't it? Brush your teeth, gums remain healthy. Perform inquiry, mind remains resilient to thought identification.
Yes certainly there is/can be identification/attachments in all aspects of life.

The "True Meditation" is an excellent approach/pointer; it points to the Natural State. In the recordings, Adya mentions giving up the idea of a "me" as the one who is meditating. I find that the best meditations these days are spontaneous occurrences without planning, its a quiet observation of all that arises and falls, inside and outside, without parameters, or expectations. It can happen with eyes open or closed, anytime. It feels like a natural, resting in the flow of life. The way Byron Katie puts it is good, we are being lived.

james
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

sevenworlds
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by sevenworlds » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:20 pm

shappy wrote:Hi sevenworlds,

I want to thank you for pointing all this out. It has all been very helpful.
Nice one. Keep on. :)

lucy
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Re: Relating with Others

Post by lucy » Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:42 pm

randomguy wrote:What has been expressed in this thread that feels less than true to my experience, is an opinion or conclusion that there is nothing to be done about identification with thought. Is this an accurate interpretation?

Would it have been more helpful for Tolle to level with his audience and have written instead a book entitled, "The Power of 'There is Nothing You Can Do"?
Let me take another stab at this. It seems the more I try to communicate what I am trying to say, the further away I seem to get from what I am trying to say.
I am not saying there is nothing you can do. What I am saying is that there is no one there in the first place to do it. Disindentifying from thoughts is still the mind trying to disidentify from thoughts. What is watching the thoughts pass by? The Silent Witness. The Silent Witness is still the mind. What is beind the Silent Witness, let that go too. Until you get to a space where nothing can be spoken about what you are. The minute you speak of it, you have falsified it. ET takes you up to the Silent Witness, beyond that (seemingly) is Nothingness. When the conditioning moves out of the way, life moves without interpretation.

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