Karmic Decision

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Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Tue May 12, 2009 10:54 am

sevenworlds wrote:
Tony-S-Ma wrote:How does one know 1+1 =2 ? Or how do you know 1+1 =2?
I don't. It is taken for granted. I have to accept the number 1 first or maths falls apart.
Do you have to accept anything? Do you have to take anything for granted? Maths do not fall apart like ego :lol:

Perhaps, ego falls apart if nothing is taken for granted.

sevenworlds
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by sevenworlds » Tue May 12, 2009 12:05 pm

I have to be taught and accept the concept of maths, otherwise it is meaningless. I have to accept the number 1 first for all other numbers to have any meaning. Supposing I had never been taught numbers. Someone holds up a stone in front of me. Can I say there is one stone?

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Tue May 12, 2009 1:04 pm

sevenworlds wrote:I have to be taught and accept the concept of maths, otherwise it is meaningless. I have to accept the number 1 first for all other numbers to have any meaning. Supposing I had never been taught numbers. Someone holds up a stone in front of me. Can I say there is one stone?
Are you sure that you are able to be taught if you do not have the innate ability to recognize the numbers? Are you sure you remember the experience of accepting the number 1 first? Or you are just making it up as the argument goes along. Are you sure you remember the experience that you thought the first thought? Do you have the experience of raising children? Have you observed the number learning process of children? Perhaps, it will be helpful for you to observe children learning numbers.

sevenworlds
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by sevenworlds » Tue May 12, 2009 1:09 pm

I don't come into this world knowing a 'tree' is a 'tree' or a 'cat' a 'cat'. Yet once I am told enough times that's what they are, I accept, and today I still call them by those names. Numbers are no different.

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mistral
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by mistral » Tue May 12, 2009 5:51 pm

Yes, but without the names for numbers, they are still exactly what they are, there values do not change. (same with trees and cats)

There is an Eternal Unseen Principle behind the numbers. The principle is valid and works any where, any time, and it is the very same principle for everyone, no matter what thier language. If you go to another planet into deep space, and the 'E.T's there use entirely different words and languages, spelling, for the numbers, it remains true that when you pick up that one stone, everyone will know it is one stone. When you do a math equation on thier planet, 1+1=2, they will agree with you. Now it holds also the same even for the child who has not been taught a thing about math; he cannot yet formulate the concepts of 'one stone' into words but he "knows"( maybe we can call it innate knowiing?) he "knows" there is 'one stone', because a single stone he would see, he would also know 'more stones' as 'more stones' because that is what he would see if we put '12 stones' there. He would know there is 'many of one thing"; his eyes and his brain and his hands to feel each stone, knows math but does not yet know how to work the symbols. Ok, so I only go there, because I am saying that the Principle of Math is innate at some level.

But, there is More to this; It is absolutely certain the Principle of Math is Real, is The Value, no matter how mixed up or tangled up in numbers I might get, no matter how off my answer to an equation might be, the Principle is Unchanged, the value behind the numbers remains the same, no matter what I do to the symbols. The Real Answer to the equation is still there, exactly right, perfectly being the right answer, never another answer, no matter or how little or how much my answer is off and wrong. The Principle Is Not Wrong. The Value of the symbols is unchanged. The answers may be totally messed 'by me' but The Principle is Never Undone by my messed numbers.

Letters of the Alphabet are the same way. In any language, in any way we symbolize the letters into form, the Real Letters cannot be harmed. I can write a "A" on the chalk board all crooked and it is still an "A". I can even write totally illegibly, and yet the Real Alphabet, Principle behind the symbols, is not hurt or changes one bit. I a can writein code, or in hieroglipics, and the 'meaning' behind those symbols is the Changless and Real, Unseen Value.

I can erase that "A" and guess what, I can get another one right out of thin air! Voila! I can get an "A" any time I need one. The Alphabet is Always Here, and Always Here, present and now...even whether I know it or not, it is still here. If I am deaf and mute, It is still here. No matter how many times I need an "A" they are infinite and unending and I can have them in any size, shape, style I like. The Wonders of Life, The Sweet Mystery of It All.

In the same way, there is a Divine Principle that 'stands' behind the images (you, me, time, matter, concepts, ideas, desk, tree, flower, child, world experienced as 'I" or as "me' either way) There is An Eternal Principle that is being the 'images'; erase the images, alter the imges, chop down the tree, take the desk to the dump, toss the ashes to the wind, the child grows up, do what ever you will with the images, and you have not touched, altered, changed The Divine Principle that 'stands behind' those images.

We use many words for that Changeless, Eternal, Infinite, Immutable, Omniscient Principle; I like to call It God. But no matter the words we call It, it is the Real Unseen "Isness" that makes 'all images possible". No matter how many images have been erased, there are more to come, any time, all varieties, all shapes and sizes, colors and attitudes.

And also, I say "yes" our attitude is of Huge importance, and Yes, we an can change our attitude, and "yes" we Do Have a Choice and "Yes" we do one day realize that the world is something rather 'holographic' and It is for sure 'subjective' and we discover that because of this, its true; we see what we be, "we are the world we walk through", so this is a very very important point to discover. One of those turning points. Although the Truth is Choiceless ( It is what It Is, Always, for ever, unchangeable Truth/Principle), that does not make us 'choiceless', or are we strive for that idea. We see Both the Vision from on High (The Living Truth behind this world) and we live in the world knowing what we know. We see and understand That there is A Living Principle, and then we also, know that one of the aspects of This Principle is that 'the images' are like 'reflections' of the That Principle and so the closer we get to recognizing the Living Principle is 'in all things' and that This Light of Truth is Behind this experience, the more we seem to learn, and change, grow and do what we are here to do ....you know the numbers and the letters are to serve a purpose, of course. And the better the purpose we 'use them for' the more wonderful that is...same with 'body-me-sense-imgage' the more I learn how to 'use it' for Good purpose, the better, and the importace of "attitude" is an enormous revelation along the way.

Much Love, Mistral

sevenworlds
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by sevenworlds » Tue May 12, 2009 6:19 pm

mistral, what distinguishes the "stone" from everything else around it? You seem to be separating recognition and naming. I have to first have the knowledge that it is a "stone" to even be able to contemplate how many. Otherwise it's all just a mass of energy moving around. You really wouldn't know what you are looking at because you are what you are looking at.

I'm not saying anything is wrong with knowledge but we somehow seem to superimpose it on top. It is fine when required. It probably developed for survival reasons. But if I am looking at someone holding a stone in their hand, why do I need to distinguish the stone from the hand from the person from everything I am seeing? This can be directly known. I can sit in a cafe and just look. I don't know what I am looking at because I'm not registering people, cars, streets, it's all just a mass of colour shifting around. Nothing is being looked at, only looking. The people, cars, streets, etc only come into focus when I want to KNOW something. When I'm ordering a coffee, yes, I need to recognise a 'person' behind the counter, and have the knowledge there of what I want. Once I'm sat down, why do I need to keep recognising everything around me? It's in this area we are wasting enormous amounts of energy through excessive thinking. Recognition is naming.

randomguy
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by randomguy » Tue May 12, 2009 7:06 pm

"I found myself desiring and knowing less and less, until I could say in utter astonishment: "I know nothing, I want nothing."" - Maharaj

What is known is that which is accepted through assumptions and utilized in the context of human life. Our senses are limited. Open full throttle to what is with no interruption from thought, perception is still the input through the pinhole of human sensory biology.
mistral wrote:It is absolutely certain the Principle of Math is Real
Perhaps, but relative, temporary and imaginary.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Tue May 12, 2009 7:46 pm

"I found myself desiring and knowing less and less, until I could say in utter astonishment: "I know nothing, I want nothing."" - Maharaj
The logical conclusion of this statement is all knowledge is relative and useless in Self-realization :lol:

However, some individual selves imitate this with egoic authority and tell others that all their knowledge is relative and useless, and that all is needed is to awake the fact that each individual is limited to what s/he is :mrgreen:

"You do not need waste your time and energy any further because all the drives are egoic."

Maharaj is Self-realized. Does he speak through the Self-realized pin-hole, or an egoic self interprets/understands his statement from egoic pin-hole :twisted:

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Tue May 12, 2009 8:42 pm

Once I'm sat down, why do I need to keep recognising everything around me? It's in this area we are wasting enormous amounts of energy through excessive thinking. Recognition is naming.
Waste? Is this another relative for preservation of some kind? Energy transforms, wasting is relative to individual self. Also "I have to first" is meaningless according to energy theory. There is no beginning nor ending.

It is interesting to observe that ego is willing to trade one form for another with relative ease. It can also hide in nothingness an individual experiences.

Incidentally, individual self is not the problem of awakening, craftiness of the ego is. Ego's purpose is to control life forms through controlled which ego may manifest. Ego loves that some individuals insist forms are illusion and ego also loves that some others hold tightly on forms. As long as a self takes on a position, ego has the operating point.

Taking no position is a position.

Positions ego prefers not to operate on: Altruism, Compassion, Agape, Humility, Loving Life of all Her expressions, Truth is benign, simple and free...

Taking ego on as an enemy aids ego on.

One practice suggested is to take on a single position which ego prefers not. And work very hard on it. Mother Teresa consciously took this path.

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mistral
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by mistral » Tue May 12, 2009 9:22 pm

sevenworlds wrote:mistral, what distinguishes the "stone" from everything else around it? You seem to be separating recognition and naming. I have to first have the knowledge that it is a "stone" to even be able to contemplate how many. Otherwise it's all just a mass of energy moving around. You really wouldn't know what you are looking at because you are what you are looking at.

I'm not saying anything is wrong with knowledge but we somehow seem to superimpose it on top. It is fine when required. It probably developed for survival reasons. But if I am looking at someone holding a stone in their hand, why do I need to distinguish the stone from the hand from the person from everything I am seeing? This can be directly known. I can sit in a cafe and just look. I don't know what I am looking at because I'm not registering people, cars, streets, it's all just a mass of colour shifting around. Nothing is being looked at, only looking. The people, cars, streets, etc only come into focus when I want to KNOW something. When I'm ordering a coffee, yes, I need to recognise a 'person' behind the counter, and have the knowledge there of what I want. Once I'm sat down, why do I need to keep recognising everything around me? It's in this area we are wasting enormous amounts of energy through excessive thinking. Recognition is naming.
Yes, and I am very good at recognizing things. I recognize you are repeating the some old hash words of many 'non-dualists' that I do believe may have gotten mis-interpreted somewhere along the line.

I do not know about you, but as for me I know I am NOT a tree, or cat. I know I do not see everything as mass of energy. Everything is not a big blob of indistinguisable mush.

Absolute Reality, Divine Intelligence is the basis for the existence of 'things'. Without Intelligence there is No 'world of images'. As I was saying about Principle.

“Jesus went up into the temple and taught. And the Jews marveled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? Jesus answered them and said, My doctrine IS not mine, but HIS that sent me. If any man do His will he shall know of the doctrine….” (John 7:14-17). In effect Jesus says knowledge does not come from the man and his attempts to arrive at truth. Rather it belongs to Truth (the Father) itself, which is the basis for all knowledge.

This is because God is Intelligence. and God is All That Is. Life Itself. Awareness and Intelligence are the same. We live in An Intelligent Universe, Mind, Divine Mind; God knows what God is. And from what I see, God does not make everything a mass of indistiguishable energy. This One Energy is Absolute Intelligence; that is how or why a 'desk is a desk' and 'cat is a cat' That which 'stands behind' it, KNOWS this is not that, that is not this.

Knowing knows.

We are 'nothing but Intelligence' and That Light of Truth knows All. There is nothing It does not know.

What is even more remarkable is that as we become aware of God's Grace, This Divine Intelligence as the underlying basis to this 'matter-time-world-experience' things get even more detailed, more distinguished. There is a great increase in sensitivity. One begins to notice more detail, not less. a wondrous fact. More color, more tenderness, more light, sizes, shapes, textures. You know that God did not make one snowflake alike, and why? Because God Infinite Mind and the things are Its Infinite Manifestions. And a little snowflake, so unique and special and lovely only lasts a split second in time. The Wonder of It all, Ah, Sweet Mystery of Life.

For me it is more like I have stopped placing good-bad values, or lables on the images of awareness, and in doing so, my ability to distinguish has increased enormously. Things I thought I was totally familar with and knew quite well, become alive with newness, I am more aware of there sensual beauty and the detail of things, different sizes, colors and designs. My perception has gotten clearer and more acute. Furthermore , there is now a very real intuitive alertness that is sharp and acurate. As my preconcieved concepts of things lets go, Reality and Its Divine Intelligence seems to bring more passion and aliveness to all that I see. this Intelligence is Open and Expansive.

I think our presuing knowledge about "who we are' is one of the Divine Gifts that should be utilized by more folks.

We are much like telescopes, we do not stop with first telescope that Galilao made, as marvelous as it was, as much as it saw about the universe, that he, with his courage and brillance, opened up the heavens for every man to explore. That first telescope told man of things they had not known before, and that understanding shook the old establishment. But, we did not stop there, Now we have invented bigger and bigger telescopes, now the Hubble brings us views of things that no man has ever seen before. We are like that, we do not stop at the first glimmer of Truth, we do not end it there where we find out a little about 'who we are' no, no, we keep going, we use what others tell us, and if it proves true we do not stop there, we do not take anyones words if they say, that is the 'end of it', No, we keep expanding our knowledge, we go exploring with Newer bigger telescopes, that move beyond old view.

Now we are almost to the begining of time before the world was, entering an even greater galaxy of understanding "who we are".

Those who concern themselves with reality as reality is find themselves with a magnificently all-embracing knowledge of 'things'. Knowing only gets more so, not less.

Oh, well, nuff said along these lines, Love, Mistral.
Last edited by mistral on Wed May 13, 2009 12:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

randomguy
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by randomguy » Tue May 12, 2009 9:27 pm

Tony-S-Ma wrote:
"I found myself desiring and knowing less and less, until I could say in utter astonishment: "I know nothing, I want nothing."" - Maharaj
The logical conclusion of this statement is all knowledge is relative and useless in Self-realization :lol:
TSM, interesting. I didn't get that. Rather to me it seems like a story of a person falling into familiarity with awareness. Not knowing, not wanting... Just placing what is known with certainty into perspective with awakening.
Tony-S-Ma wrote:However, some individual selves imitate this with egoic authority and tell others that all their knowledge is relative and useless,
Regarding useless, I use what I know. As for math, I use it every day. All knowlege it seems to me exists dependent upon imagination, which is relative to human life and experience. Awareness is the connection to the source, the common, the universal, the unmanifested. Knowledge in comparison seems evaporative.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

randomguy
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by randomguy » Tue May 12, 2009 11:33 pm

mistral wrote:I think our presuing knowledge about "who we are' is one of the Divine Gifts that should be utilized by more folks. We are much like telescopes, we do not stop with first telescope that Galilao made, as marvelous as it was, as much as it saw about the universe, that he open up the heavens for every man to explore, that first telescope told man of thing they had not known before, and that understanding shook the old establishment. But, we did not stop there, Now we have invented bigger and bigger telescopes, now the Hubble brings us views of things that no man has ever seen before. We are like that, we do not stop at the first glimmer of Truth, we do not end it there where we find out a little about 'who we are' no, no, we keep going, we do not take anyones words for the 'end of it' we go exploring with Newer bigger telescopes. Now almost to the begining of time before the world was, to an even greater understanding "who we are".
Very nice, mistral. I too feel the motivation for further learning. It's our nature, so it seems. Accept, act, learn. Why do I simultaneously feel that I don't know anything with certainty yet I know that I know what I know within the world of forms? One for Heidi's paradox thread?

Peace.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

sevenworlds
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by sevenworlds » Wed May 13, 2009 1:14 am

mistral, I have the feeling you are stopping yourself short of going all the way. As I keep saying, I only became familiar with the term "non-dualism" on here. So if you wish to see my statements under that category that's up to you. It's very easy to dismiss what I say in that way and kid yourself on.

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. If I were thinking or seeing myself as a tree I'd be back in knowledge again. There is no word/concept there. I do not know what I am looking at other than when there is a need to. That need is out of my control, it comes and goes of it's own accord. Knowledge creates a division, it is distance/space/time. When that is not there, there is only looking. I don't even perceive it as "a mass of energy", but that was a way of putting it into language. In truth, I just do not know. I can only talk about it because of what was at either end of it - a thought or recognition of some thing. That is what terms like "pure being" and "awareness in awareness of itself" mean. There is only the feeling 'is' and no more. Nothing getting in between you and yourself. If you are recognising then you are thinking, there is a division in you. Nothing wrong with that in itself but it's not what I'm speaking of here.

If you wish to believe I am just parroting, it's fine by me. These things happened to me before I was able to put them into any context. I spent a year with Tolle being the only spiritual teacher I was aware of. I started getting a lot of experiences he never spoke about and I was confused for a while by that. I started to 'lose' my physical body a year ago. I remember drying my back with a towel and I could see the towel on my left side and then on my right side but there was a blank space where my back is. I could no longer fill in or picture my back using thought. If my arm was resting on the chair, it looked like one with the chair, nothing in me would tell me it was 'my arm'. If I wasn't looking down, then my body didn't exist. I would only feel the sensations. If someone left the room I could not create the image of them - it was like they were completely gone. Similar things started happening with sounds, where the interpreter seemed to be missing. Then I'd be walking along the street and not know what I was looking at yet still be able to get around.

None of this made sense - although it never scared me - until I read of UG Krishnamurti's 'calamity'. He explained it as the interpreter which links all the senses up being gone. That's exactly how I find it. The interpreter is the one that hears 'car engine', sees 'tree', feels 'soft', etc... What do you think Eckhart means when he talks of looking at a tree without labelling it? If you're not labelling it at all, then 'you' aren't there. How would you know it's a tree? You don't believe yourself to BE the tree but there is no separation. It feels like it's inside you. Whatever is filling your vision is just there. Whatever you are hearing is just there. You only identify and distinguish between things when there is a need to. Since that all happened last year it has never left me. That is how I directly experience the world. If this sounds like someone else then that's because the words I use are not mine. I am before words. Every word has been programmed into me so of course I can't say anything original. When this happens, your only reference point is what others have said before mixed in with your own phrases, and they too have been picked up from somewhere else.

What you're describing sounds like the initial phase, for want of a better term. I experienced this 2 years ago where anything in nature seemed to stand out, as if it had more depth and clarity than everything around it. Kind of like looking at a painting or through those 3D viewfinder things. That is still the case for me when the knowledge is there. That in itself is quite rare but most stop there and think they've got it. If allowed it becomes deeper but you really have to have courage to let go.

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mistral
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by mistral » Wed May 13, 2009 6:56 am

Again; Awareness, Divine Principle, Truth, Life, God ( all the same to me, no matter what name I give's it) is not altered, changed, made more of what it is or less what it is, by the labels within It Self---This Light of Truth that is Ever Present and Always Here. My Holy Beloved One and The Grace of this Living Truth, Life, Divine Intelligence, Godhead; This-One-That-Is Being All in all, This the very awareness reading these words and writing these words, is The immutable, Single, All and Only Presence. There is no other Presence. No amount of labeling or not labeling will have any effect on This Living Perfection that is Being all labels, all form, all matter, all space, all that is seen or unseen, known and unknown. The Living One, The Divine Principle that is Being the warp and woof of all that is, is changeless and eternal. Whether someone likes to make his arms disappear into the chair, or whether someone likes to feel like he is not there in the room, or not, makes not one bit of an iota of difference to This Awareness I Am (you are). Feeling no "you" or feeling 'full of you' both ways are prefecly acceptable but whatever you do or do not do, still, Perfection remains Unchanged by our shennangins. Low and Behold, even an atom bomb cannot destroy Awareness.

Principle, God of all existence is eternal, without beginning and without end, indestructible, and continuous in being, no matter what the tortured meanderings of human activity. And since the Principle continues, so continues all that the Principle is. God the substance and essence of all that is, remains perfect, unabated and untouched—everywhere present and nowhere absent. So, as in my original post here ( and I wrote a whole long thing about it), I dare say labeling is a joy for me, I love words and labels, the more the merrier, bring 'em on. Distinctions are fine and dandy with me, they are a marvel of God. It makes no matter no how to This That I Am, but knowing that to be True sure makes My Life a bowl of cherries.

As some comedian used to say "that's my story and I am stick'in to it"

Much Joy in the this Marvelous Truth, Mistral

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: Karmic Decision

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Wed May 13, 2009 10:30 am

None of this made sense - although it never scared me - until I read of UG Krishnamurti's 'calamity'. He explained it as the interpreter which links all the senses up being gone. That's exactly how I find it. The interpreter is the one that hears 'car engine', sees 'tree', feels 'soft', etc... What do you think Eckhart means when he talks of looking at a tree without labelling it? If you're not labelling it at all, then 'you' aren't there. How would you know it's a tree? You don't believe yourself to BE the tree but there is no separation. It feels like it's inside you. Whatever is filling your vision is just there. Whatever you are hearing is just there. You only identify and distinguish between things when there is a need to. Since that all happened last year it has never left me. That is how I directly experience the world. If this sounds like someone else then that's because the words I use are not mine. I am before words. Every word has been programmed into me so of course I can't say anything original. When this happens, your only reference point is what others have said before mixed in with your own phrases, and they too have been picked up from somewhere else.
Dear Mr. seven,

When I first saw your postings, I suspected that you are experiencing what U.G. was experiencing. I do not suspect what you are experiencing; however, I will tell you again, you are still ego driven.

Please watch the following video. Jill described her experiences much nicer to those who have not experienced what you are experiencing. It is just a brain malfunction.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jill ... sight.html

Tony
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