The Two Minds

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the key master
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The Two Minds

Post by the key master » Mon May 11, 2009 10:54 am

After reading some recent debate on the forum regarding the use of mind from Presence, I thought this article from Dr. Tan Kheng Koo might be helpful. He doesn't seem to be a big fan of the paragraph, so sorry for the giant block of text...

Moderator's note: Thanks very much for this, Jason...very interesting. I did take the liberty of inserting a few carriage-returns for ease of reading...Andy


The Two Minds


Now that we know about the unreality of the mind, what happens after the total destruction of the mind? How does a person function after enlightenment? He is left with a working (functional) mind. The enlightened person is devoid of the concept of the ego as Self. There is no ‘me’ involved. He is now in duality but not in dualism. The thinking mind which draws on memory to project worries and fears of the future, is absent in the enlightened person. He is left with only the working (functional) mind. These are not two different minds. It is only a notional division that facilitates the explanation of the remaining functional mind after enlightenment.

After enlightenment there is no ‘me’, ‘I’ or ‘myself’. The non-self merely allows Consciousness to act through his psychophysical organism. The working mind is required because he still has to live and function in this world. The working mind must to some extent identity itself with his body and the person must also be able to draw on his memory to know his environment including names of people, places and things. The working mind, however, has no anxiety or fear of the future because there is no self-interest. These negativities are the attributes of the thinking mind. The working mind functions only in the present. Memory is used only in relationship to the working of the present. The working mind may also be called the silent mind. The thinking mind is the loud one, and it instils doubts and worries by asking about the future: ‘Are you doing the right thing?’ ‘What if there is a recession?’ ‘Are you sure you will not be retrenched?’ If the thinking mind keeps on intruding into the working mind, the latter cannot function efficiently.

The thinking mind tires a person disproportionately and time is very laboured. On the other hand, the working mind has no sense of time and 2-3 hours would have passed without the individual realising it. So in the spiritual path, the individual has to utilise the working mind more and more and oust out the thinking mind step by step. This is part of his evolution. Of course the sooner one dis-identifies the ego as the Self, the faster will the thinking mind be eliminated. In performing the present task, the working mind will also draw on the memory to decide the present course of action, but does not worry about the outcome of the present task. He must also identify with the body to function but without self-image. The working mind simply answers to the call of his name, but he has no aggrandised idea attached to his name. The thinking mind would have. The working mind is also the witnessing, but if the working mind is fully occupied in the job, there is no need for witnessing. This is because the working mind functions in the timeless without a ‘me’. The working mind is the same as what the Buddhists use in insight meditation. In every action, one must totally be mindful of the action, and no extraneous thought is allowed to accompany the action. This exercise of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness is to utilise the working mind solely on the job in the ‘now’. In this exercise, the thinking mind is prevented from intruding. The practitioner should be totally absorbed in that particular activity.

The working mind has no judgement, no fear or anxiety and no projections into the future. Success will also be facilitated if the practitioner also truly believes that he has no control over the outcome of his work. Stay in the moment and work in the now and the future will look after itself. There should not be any thought like ‘I’ am doing this. The thought ‘I’ will drag in the thinking mind. When the working mind is wholly on the job, it is not a blank. It should be one hundred percent mindful. In sitting meditation, it is even easier to distract the meditator. Random thoughts, associative thoughts, memories and daydreaming are all devices used by the thinking mind to prevent the working mind from its task.

Tony-S-Ma
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Re: The Two Minds

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Mon May 11, 2009 12:00 pm

Again, this is a typical scientific type of understanding. When one has enough understandings, one starts to experience what is beyond understanding.

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Re: The Two Minds

Post by kiki » Mon May 11, 2009 12:55 pm

Thank you key master for an interesting article.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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the key master
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Re: The Two Minds

Post by the key master » Mon May 11, 2009 3:55 pm

Tony said,
Again, this is a typical scientific type of understanding. When one has enough understandings, one starts to experience what is beyond understanding.
When mind has understood, through and through, the nature of thought and how the story of separate self is created and then maintained, there is no story of a person to experience that which is beyond understanding. The distinction between working mind and thinking mind, alluded to above, can be quite subtle. The mind is more than capable of fooling itself into believing only a working mind exists, or essentially into believing that the thinking mind itself is enlightened. This belief is not conscious, so its easily missed. Experiences of unselfconscious presence, where there are no problems as there is no thought, confirm to the thinking mind that it is enlightened, when in reality a new story of separate self based on the witness image is being told. In effect, its the same story as before, except now its an enlightened story. The thinking mind continues to operate under this new guise, until the working mind goes to work on this false sense of self.

Carefully observing the mind during activities such as planning or even writing a post on this board can reveal the thinking mind operating in a very subtle manner. Planning turns future into a variable for thought, and the thinking mind jumps right on this. Eckhart tells us its ok to plan, which it is, but seemingly the number of minds capable of doing this with only the working mind is quite low. I invite whoever reads this to observe their mind the next time they post on this board. Notice any thinking which brings the story of the form which appears to be writing the post into play. I wonder who's going to write back to "me", I don't like what this person said to "me", ooh this will make them see that I'm enlightened. Stuff like this reveals the thinking mind, and hence the egoic self, still operating even when mind has quite a solid grasp on the intellectual level regarding enlightenment. The mind itself might even believe that there's nothing more to understand, which is actually true upon Self-realization, but possessing this belief within mind is actually the biggest obstacle to Self-realization.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the thinking mind or even posting on the board with a blatant sense of ego. Its all good. Just don't let the thinking mind prevent the working mind from seeing through the thinking mind. Suffering a lot seems to help one take an honest look at these things. Its possible you don't have to walk that path though.

With Love,
jason

sevenworlds
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Re: The Two Minds

Post by sevenworlds » Mon May 11, 2009 5:03 pm

Nice post Jason.
the key master wrote:Notice any thinking which brings the story of the form which appears to be writing the post into play. I wonder who's going to write back to "me", I don't like what this person said to "me", ooh this will make them see that I'm enlightened.
This part in particular is worth highlighting because mind is so crafty it can work it either way. Not only might you miss the "this will make them see I'm enlightened" thought but if you catch that one you might miss the "so I won't say much or post at all to show them I'm not trying to show I'm enlightened" :) There is still a fear hidden there. The thoughts themselves are not so important because they might pass by anyway. You can only do what you do when you're not listening to any of them. Then there is room for the energy of life to express in its own way. There is no predicting how that will express but as long as you're relying on a teaching of any kind you will have a fixed idea of how it should express.

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Re: The Two Minds

Post by the key master » Mon May 11, 2009 5:34 pm

There is still a fear hidden there. The thoughts themselves are not so important because they might pass by anyway.
Yes seven. But when the thoughts themselves are leading to a sense of identity with an image, mind indentification is still apparent. As long as this is the case, suffering is still possible, or inevitable more likely.
but as long as you're relying on a teaching of any kind you will have a fixed idea of how it should express.
Yes seven, ultimately, its about going beyond the need of a teaching. The ego sense of self constantly projects through the thinking mind. The working mind still has not understood something. Inquiry can purify the mind, and only a pure mind is ready for everlasting communion with the Absolute. Earnestness now is essential.

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Re: The Two Minds

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Mon May 11, 2009 6:11 pm

Stuff like this reveals the thinking mind, and hence the egoic self, still operating even when mind has quite a solid grasp on the intellectual level regarding enlightenment. The mind itself might even believe that there's nothing more to understand, which is actually true upon Self-realization, but possessing this belief within mind is actually the biggest obstacle to Self-realization.
Following this theory, thinking mind can be shocked into not operating. This can actually explain what happened to Ramana Maharshi and ET. Using drugs can stop the thinking mind also. It should be noticed, when mind works intellectually, there is no ego involved. When one adds a bunch of numbers up, ego is not needed, nor ego cares about the process. A theory states only 10% of mind is egoic; however, in most people, this part of the mind is dominating. I would say that believing is egoic, that understanding is semi-egoic and that experiencing is non-egoic.




Then there is room for the energy of life to express in its own way. There is no predicting how that will express but as long as you're relying on a teaching of any kind you will have a fixed idea of how it should express.
This is the craftiness of egoic part of the mind which secretly believes it is completely free to express itself regardless of the Collective. It childishly prefers/loves its own way. An anarchist dressed up in Enlightenment clothing.

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Re: The Two Minds

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Mon May 11, 2009 6:41 pm

A theory about the process of Enlightenment is that it is a process of removing all the non-conscious beliefs, or consciousizing all the beliefs held by one's ego. The Light of consciousness transforms.

sevenworlds
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Re: The Two Minds

Post by sevenworlds » Mon May 11, 2009 6:42 pm

the key master wrote:Yes seven. But when the thoughts themselves are leading to a sense of identity with an image, mind indentification is still apparent. As long as this is the case, suffering is still possible, or inevitable more likely.
Yes, and when that image itself is identified as the ultimate thought, which all the others rely on, the whole thing falls into place. Then it could be said you don't even know what thought is. Everything we know about thought and what we call thought is only itself another thought.
Tony-S-Ma wrote:It should be noticed, when mind works intellectually, there is no ego involved. When one adds a bunch of numbers up, ego is not needed, nor ego cares about the process.
Not necessarily. It depends what the drive is behind wanting to add up the numbers. What goal is trying to be reached by using intellect in the first place?
Tony-S-Ma wrote:This is the craftiness of egoic part of the mind which secretly believes it is completely free to express itself regardless of the Collective. It childishly prefers/loves its own way. An anarchist dressed up in Enlightenment clothing.
You don't give up do you Tony? :lol: Your first statement doesn't mean a thing because there is no Collective. An anarchist still holds to the belief that there should be no government, no authority. A truly free man knows he is free regardless. He doesn't need to fight for 'rights' externally.

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Re: The Two Minds

Post by Glycine » Mon May 11, 2009 7:27 pm

sevenworlds wrote:Then there is room for the energy of life to express in its own way. There is no predicting how that will express .....
Do you think we can stop the "energy of life" from expressing in its own way?
What if the "energy of life" is always expressing itself in absolutely everything - even when we think we are opposing it?

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mistral
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Re: The Two Minds

Post by mistral » Mon May 11, 2009 7:29 pm

And the Lord answered me, and said, "Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it. (this means, bring something to the table nurishes, vitalizes, words that refresh so 'they' may 'run' with it)

But no, Dr. Koos has got this all wrong.

Has he never heard these words: "lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.”

This Dr.Koo has certainly done no one any good here with this overly intellectual, mis-guided drival.

This is a perfect example of getting the spiritual seekers to fundamentailze and Intellectualize nonduality which of course then causes nonduality to be another duality and another problem that fortifies the 'liar and lies' and lead them off track....but I know this bunch is Brighter than that....

I thought we were about finding and sharing the The Light of Truth here.

You cannot measure the Immeasurable.

From what I have discovered the Light of Truth brings Freedom from all this kind of intellectualizing emphasis on division, cutting to pieces, separation. TheTruth brings us to be in touch with The Child, not with more of "old man".

I hope no one is buying Dr. Tan Kheng Koo’s 'shtick'.

If he wants to view his Identity as split in two then so be it, but he has no right to call this anything to do with Truth.

As for me I have found the more I realize that there is nothing separate or apart from the Ineffable One Divine Mind, the sweeter, brighter, and more mysteriously wonderful my whole world gets. Awareness, mind (one or two or three of a zillion) are already aspects of This Awareness I am, and there is No other Awareness. All that appears as 'two or more' appears with This Awareness as that actual-I-that I am, as the Holy Perfection of The One perfect Being. Every petal of every flower, ever twig , and every leaf, every rock, every mountain, every star and galaxy that thunders through the heavens and constitutes the universe, are all seen to be one of the infinite qualities and attributes of the my Perfect Beloved One, the ineffable Godhead itself; Single Identity perceiving Itself and being "I".

This mans Dr.Koo’s ideas are full of misleading trouble and as Tony-s-ma put so succinctly honest and true:
Tony-S-Ma wrote:Again, this is a typical scientific type of understanding. When one has enough understandings, one starts to experience what is beyond understanding.

How beautiful on the mountains are the feet (the ones who stand on Truth) of those who bring good news, who publish peace, who bring good tidings, who publish salvation, who say to Zion, “Your God reigns!” Isaiah 52:7

“God is a circle whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere.”

Proverbs 17:22 >>
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine but a broken spirit drieth the bones


Genesis 21:6 >>
And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me.

Water water everywhere and no one drinking It. Love, Mistral

the key master
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Re: The Two Minds

Post by the key master » Mon May 11, 2009 7:36 pm

Tony said,
Following this theory, thinking mind can be shocked into not operating. This can actually explain what happened to Ramana Maharshi and ET.
Or through one's sadhana, the working mind destroys the sense of self created by the thinking mind. Life itself is the ultimate Guru. Appearances can be deceiving. Look to your own experience, and see what aspects of your story mind vests a sense of self in. What interests you? What is it thats keeping the thinking mind so busy? Attachment to the world of form arises simultaneously with attachment to the story of mind; they rise and fall together.

The understanding that the thinking mind isn't you may be established within mind. Yet continuously its problems are treated as your own. Its attachments are treated as your attachments. Something must be off. Seemingly mind needs convincing. The enlightened image is a great carrot on a stick to dangle in front of mind, to get it to look deeply into these matters. But this is one carrot mind cannot taste. You are the Supreme Reality, but mind must be ready to relinquish all right now and not a moment later. With action will come conviction and with conviction will come confidence. All talk of enlightenment is utter nonsense. Look into your own mind and see the dust that needs wiping away. See what you look forward to. See what you cling to. This is what the working mind must do. Then and only then can the thinking mind let go, as it sees what it must let go of. You are either ready to jump or you aren't. Seemingly this is beyond mind's control completely.

jason

the key master
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Re: The Two Minds

Post by the key master » Mon May 11, 2009 7:46 pm

Hey mistral,

Enjoyed your post, and have a few things to say.
You cannot measure the Immeasurable.
Quite right.
As for me I have found the more I realize that there is nothing separate or apart from the Ineffable One Divine Mind, the sweeter, brighter, and more mysteriously wonderful my whole world gets.
Who is it that's realizing? How can there be anything "more" to realize? Perhaps it is you who tries to measure the Immeasurable. There is no "my" world in Self-realization. Mind's inclination to attach and identify with the story it projects is natural as the individual appears to walk the spiritual path. Your words are beautiful, but at times miss the mark.

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mistral
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Re: The Two Minds

Post by mistral » Mon May 11, 2009 8:22 pm

the key master wrote:Who is it that's realizing?
I Am Realizing, who else is there?
the key master wrote:How can there be anything "more" to realize?
How can there Not be anything More? It is very obvious that there is more. Life is about Infinite Being. Sweet Mytery, of course there is more, so much more, Unbound, Unlimited, Ever Expanding All That Is.
the key master wrote:There is no "my" world in Self-realization
There is only My World in Self Realization. Alone, One, Single, All in all. There is no other World that is not Mine, seen and unseen, known and unknown.
the key master wrote:Mind's inclination to attach and identify with the story it projects is natural as the individual appears to walk the spiritual path.
Yes, Such is the way God's Grace expresses Here as "I". How lovely, how unique, it only gets better, grows more marvelous and mysterious as we go, "the wonders never cease".
the key master wrote:Your words are beautiful, but at times miss the mark.
Thank you, It's lead by Grace. Any Beauty seen is The Beauty In Your eyes. Beauty recieved or given, is never off target.

Love you, Mistral

the key master
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Re: The Two Minds

Post by the key master » Mon May 11, 2009 8:58 pm

Mistral,


Yes, Such is the way God's Grace expresses Here as "I". How lovely, how unique, it only gets better, grows more marvelous and mysterious as we go, "the wonders never cease".
Gets "better" implies future and is nothing but a judgment within mind. Your mind is projecting its own experience as actual Truth. Capitalize letters or not, the world you speak of is not one of freedom here and now, regardless of what mind says. You speak of the waters of Truth yet sit in the desert. If you are beyond suffering, if you are free of this world, then "you" are no more. The concept of two minds, or even of the egoic mind and the witness, are concepts utilized to condition mind to uncondition itself. Concepts got you into this mess, concepts will get you out. You don't see the need to be free here and now so mind is content to dream here and now. No concepts can encapsulate Truth, but they can take the mind beyond concepts so that the true Self, "Unbound, Unlimited, Ever Expanding All That Is", can shine forth during the "appearance" of what is "your" human experience.

I love you as well Mistral :D

J

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