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Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:28 pm
by Sighclone
Thanks, Jason, for Dr. Koo's comments! I fondly recall reading PON for the first time - most of the tone is "correcting" the beliefs of the "questioners" (his summary of common questions he used to get.) I always try to write from truth. Sometimes that will be a contradictory expression to that which I have just read. Sometimes supportive. I have made comments which might be labelled as 'egoic' - which I might review and label 'egoic' today. No blame.

I really like what Koo says about the "two" minds. Of course, that is a dualistic comment, but his entire perspective is ratiocinative. However, it is also confirmational about the awakening event - see esp. Gary Weber; "Happiness Beyond Thought" - ((Jason...this is one you would really like!!))

I spoke to Gary at length on the phone. I commented that even the concept "I AM" is too dualistic. He agreed. He also discusses the absence of intention and will. I'm going to send him this excerpt.

Namaste, Andy

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:59 pm
by the key master
Hey Andy,

I understand what you are saying. Yes I've checked Gary Weber's website after you recommended it to me earlier, haven't read the book yet though. I do enjoy his expression. Talk soon,

jason

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 1:07 am
by sevenworlds
Glycine wrote:
sevenworlds wrote:Do you think we can stop the "energy of life" from expressing in its own way?
What if the "energy of life" is always expressing itself in absolutely everything - even when we think we are opposing it?
It's a way of putting it. It is expressing as it should - or the only way it can because of the way we are - always. Yet it could be said, it flows and expresses more purely once the obstruction of thought is not interfering. Why is it an obstruction? Because misery and pain, the daily grind, are real for those suffering and yet deep down we suspect it needn't be.

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 1:51 am
by mistral
the key master wrote:You speak of the waters of Truth yet sit in the desert. If you are beyond suffering, if you are free of this world, then "you" are no more.
Who told you that? Who told you that if you are free of this world then "you" are no more? Who ever told you that, I think he is wrong.

And anyway, I am not 'after a life without suffering', suffering serves a divine purpose if we listen with honesty. I am not afraid of suffering, I am not trying to be rid of the world. I have no desire to be rid of anything. I am not free from the world, I love the world, I embace the world, I make love to the world in a million ways at every given moment. Blessed Beloved world. There is nothing between this world and me. And have you ever laid under the night sky of a desert? Ah, there is nothing more glorious than That (capital "T" or not). I find what ever I need is all right here. I just look 'round and see It, the same as you child of Life.

Oh, I forgot to top it off with whipped cream and cherries: I love Me, oh yes I do!

Thinking you many need some clarity on that ---as Catherine of Sienna was heard to say; "My me is God.... Nor do I see any other me but my God himself."

Mistral

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 5:56 am
by the key master
Apparently I need to be more vigilant in watching my own mind projections. Discussing Truth can be a dangerous thing for the egoic mind, and its embedded a fear within my own egoic structure. The "thinking" mind came back around today, and personal will became apparent. I thank Sighclone for pointing this out to me. Very subtle these things. Luckily Life doesn't let "me" get away with things like this for long. I'm sorry for this :D ,


jason

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:50 am
by the key master
I said,
and its embedded a fear within my own egoic structure.
Which stemmed from the desire to project an enlightened image of self. Notice how mind more willingly discovers the fear, and then the desire. LOL.

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:31 am
by Sighclone
I think that sensitivity to one's own ego increases as we awaken. Ramana left us many blessings, one of which is that the "I" is a thought. It is a thought encouraged by all of society, and 95% of literature and music. And virtually all of advertising. Which means egos are all over television and other media.

Ego identity is completely pervasive. And we have decades of subtle training to maintain it. Fortunately, however, it's just a thought. The "I thought." I prefer the "ice cream" thought. Being thoughts, they have equal claim to reality. Except that you can take a bite of ice cream.

I certainly would not worry about a flicker of the "I thought." Smile, accept and let it be and vanish into that infinite space of "past thoughts"....poof.

Namaste, Andy

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 12:42 pm
by Tony-S-Ma
It's a way of putting it. It is expressing as it should - or the only way it can because of the way we are - always. Yet it could be said, it flows and expresses more purely once the obstruction of thought is not interfering. Why is it an obstruction? Because misery and pain, the daily grind, are real for those suffering and yet deep down we suspect it needn't be.
What is this "more purely ". Are thoughts not parts of Life? Is obstruction of water flowing by lands not natural /real?

Here is energy theory: Higher consciousness is fine energy, higher thoughts are coarser energy, matters are condensed energy, lower thoughts are anti-coarser energy, and lower consciousness is anti-fine energy. Energy spectrum is continuous from higher consciousness to lower consciousness. Material manifestation mirrors energy manifestation.

Energy follows the principle: each portion reflects the whole. The finer the energy, the better the reflection. It is like a finer net catching both small and large fish.

Life form is manifestation of higher consciousness in material realm. Lower consciousness can only manifest in material realm through lower thoughts. To enslave higher energy manifestation of life, the lower consciousness must use lower thought forms. Lower thought forms obstruct higher consciousness, and higher thought forms obstruct lower consciousness due to polarity.

Most people into awakening business know that thought forms are acquired through conscious/unconscious learning. Is "thoughts obstruct life energy" a higher thought form or a lower thought form :?:

The true master behind ego is the lower consciousness which can only indirectly control life forms through lower thought forms. We can all testify the craftiness of the egoic thoughts. Truth is simple: Surrender all to the higher consciousness, which energizes all life forms.

It should be noted both higher and lower consciousnesses are formless. One experiences Hell if one intentionally gets into the realm of the lower consciousness. Recorded stories indicate that the Hell experiences are characterized by being cut off from the higher consciousness. One experiences true helplessness and loneliness.

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:22 pm
by the key master
Hi mistral,
Who told you that? Who told you that if you are free of this world then "you" are no more?
No one told me this.
Oh, I forgot to top it off with whipped cream and cherries: I love Me, oh yes I do!
:D
I think that sensitivity to one's own ego increases as we awaken.
Yes. Exponentially so in some.
Fortunately, however, it's just a thought. The "I thought."
Its a lot more than just a thought. Its the sense of self derived from thinking. Nothing wrong with thinking, or the "I thought", just the sense of self. And when I say wrong, I simply mean false.

And Tony,

Perhaps your mind relies too heavily on theory in discovery of Truth. Enjoyed the conversation.

Thank you all sincerely,
jason

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:48 pm
by Tony-S-Ma
And Tony,

Perhaps your mind relies too heavily on theory in discovery of Truth. Enjoyed the conversation.
All theories are provisional to me, and I may use one theory to poke holes in another theory like shooting myself on the foot :lol:

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 8:57 pm
by Tony-S-Ma
Who told you that? Who told you that if you are free of this world then "you" are no more? Who ever told you that, I think he is wrong.
The crafty ego has been teaching this theory of no individual self since life form starts to manifest on this planet :lol:

A lot in the awakening business have bought it and taken it as Ultimate Truth :cry: The first life forms are single cell organisms, for crying out aloud.

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:12 pm
by Tony-S-Ma
"There can be no deceit in the search for Truth."
-Maharaj
Maharaj is Self-realized; however, ego is still operational until one is beyond individual Karma like Krishna, Zoroaster, and Buddha.

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 9:45 pm
by the key master
Hi Tony,
What is this "more purely ".
Sorry I didn't respond to this before, my dog really wanted to go out.

I said perhaps your mind is relying too heavily on theory, yet as your mind realizes, the original post regarding two minds in itself is a theory. So what of this?

Some theories or concepts turn the mind on itself. Essentially, they condition the mind to uncondition itself. These type of "theories" work at subtracting concepts from the mind, not adding concepts to it. Self-realization occurs through subtraction, not addition.
Maharaj is Self-realized; however, ego is still operational until one is beyond individual Karma like Krishna, Zoroaster, and Buddha.
When the ego self is derived solely from the "working mind" and Pure Awareness, that is Self-realization. But that's just my experience, and that's all I speak from. Why worry about Maharaj, Krishna, or me? Look at your own self, and see through it.

-jason

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:02 pm
by RCharles
Right ON, Mistral! Your posts bring us back to the solid ground of experience. Thank you!

This is a useful thread because it points out the many subtle deceptions of the ego (thank you, Jason), including the "I am enlightened" ploy in which the ego takes over the concept of enlightenment. But the antidote to it is not in pointing out ad infinitum, ad nauseum to oneself and others the myriad circumstances and reasonings that the ego can employ to deceive. That just becomes another ego game of who is out-enlightening/out-reasoning whom. And that is what is happening in this thread and many others.

Mistral gets it. The enlightened response, after acknowledging the ego's deceptions, is a return to Presence, to No Mind. No amount of wrangling over the use of the words "I" and "me" to refer to one's body/mind will get us there. What other words are you supposed to use when referring to your body/mind/spirit? As we all know, the words are just pointers for communication and have nothing to do with how enlightened/unenlightened the writer is.

Return to Presence, to one mind, or no mind. The answers are all there/here (not in this endless debate).

Thanks again, Mistral. :D

RC

Re: The Two Minds

Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 10:28 pm
by the key master
Hey RC,
including the "I am enlightened" ploy in which the ego takes over the concept of enlightenment.
Yes LOL.
As we all know, the words are just pointers for communication and have nothing to do with how enlightened/unenlightened the writer is.
There are no degrees of enlightenment.

Jason