Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

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karmarider
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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by karmarider » Wed May 20, 2009 4:44 am

Tony-S-Ma wrote:
As for this not being the only way to enlightenment, what other ways are there?
There are at least four general ways to awakening:

1. Faith: Unwavering belief in something (God, a master, a practice ,or whatever)

2. Love: Serving selflessly.

3. Hope: Consistently being optimistic (or positive).

4. Conscience: Sincere gratitude towards all those (not just people) responsible for one's existence. The most immediate gratitude is to one's mother.
And also, left-brain stroke. :D

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by karmarider » Wed May 20, 2009 4:52 am

OneLove wrote:As for this not being the only way to enlightenment, what other ways are there?
It doesn't seem plausible that there is only one way to enlightenment, though I have no proof either way.

Buddha was enlightened through meditation--probably vippasana meditation.
Ramana through accident.
Tolle had a tantrum.
Nisgardatta through the sense of I AM.
Some through being present
Tony Parsons by walking in a park
Adyashanti through meditation
Some through non-dualism (sailor bob etc)
Alan Watts through inquiry
Being present, being aware, releasing, effortless meditation, zazen...

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by OneLove » Wed May 20, 2009 10:46 pm

I agree that meditation and accidents can lead to realization but the only way to get rid of all ego is to question every bit of it as it comes into your life. There can't be a sudden enlightenment. How could all of your thoughts and beliefs just suddenly disappear? This is only what we hope will happen, not what actually happens. I'm afraid that most of those teachers you've just listed lied when they said they had experienced one "awakening experience". Even our beloved Ramana lied too. HA! Even that crazy UGK lied about his too. The thing takes tons of time.

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by Marcel Franke » Thu May 21, 2009 9:42 am

> Buddha was enlightened through meditation--probably vippasana meditation.

I like this version:

Siddharta found himself an utter failure.
He failed as a prince, as a husband and as a yogi.
There was nothing left.
Then, meditation found him.
---ooOoo---

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by Webwanderer » Fri May 22, 2009 1:51 pm

OneLove wrote:I agree that meditation and accidents can lead to realization but the only way to get rid of all ego is to question every bit of it as it comes into your life.
While I agree with this in principle, caution is advised not to presume an answer to the subject of one's questioning. The risk is in creating an equally limiting spiritual ego to replace the conditioned one.

WW

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by Sighclone » Fri May 22, 2009 3:45 pm

not to presume an answer to the subject of one's questioning
:) !!!!

thanks, WW....

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by Webwanderer » Sat May 23, 2009 3:36 pm

Sighclone wrote:
not to presume an answer to the subject of one's questioning
:) !!!!

thanks, WW....

Andy
Too much verbosity?

WW

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by karmarider » Sat May 23, 2009 6:12 pm

OneLove wrote:I agree that meditation and accidents can lead to realization but the only way to get rid of all ego is to question every bit of it as it comes into your life. There can't be a sudden enlightenment. How could all of your thoughts and beliefs just suddenly disappear? This is only what we hope will happen, not what actually happens. I'm afraid that most of those teachers you've just listed lied when they said they had experienced one "awakening experience". Even our beloved Ramana lied too. HA! Even that crazy UGK lied about his too. The thing takes tons of time.
To discuss this question we would have to make many assumptions about what enlightenment is, whether it can be sudden or not, whether thoughts can disappear, whether the ego can disappear...and whether most of the teachers are lying. The fixed ideas we create about awakening are the very obstacle to awakening.

-

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by Tony-S-Ma » Sat May 23, 2009 6:49 pm

The fixed ideas we create about awakening are the very obstacle to awakening.
The fixed ideas about awakening give some much needed rest after major transformations. Ideas are not created by us who are just little bit more advanced experiencers of ideas than animals. Many in the awakening business are experience such resting without even knowing.

Does anybody here brave enough to state that he actually has created an idea? We are only a bunch of ungrateful idea users, and proud about our own little understandings. Much like a little child suddenly understands saying NO.

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by HermitLoon » Sat May 23, 2009 10:16 pm

" I am not an object in Consciousness but its source, its Witness, pure shapeless Awareness.
You are and I am. But only as points in consciousness; we are nothing apart from consciousness. (92) You are not the body. You are the immensity and infinity of consciousness. (264) The source of consciousness cannot be an object in consciousness. To know the source is to be the source. When you realize that you are not the person, but the pure and calm witness, and that fearless awareness is your very being, you are the being. It is the source, the inexhaustible Possibility. (65) Discard all you are not and go ever deeper. Just as a man digging a well discards what is not water, until he reaches the water-bearing strata, so must you discard what is not your own, till nothing is left which you can disown. You will find that what is left is nothing which the mind can hook on to. You are not even a human being. You just are - a point of awareness, co-extensive with time and space and beyond both, the ultimate cause, itself uncaused. If you ask me "Who are you?", my answer would be: "Nothing in particular. Yet, I am." (318) I am not my body, nor do I need it. I am the witness only. I have no shape of my own. You are so accustomed to think of yourself as bodies having consciousness that you just cannot imagine consciousness as having bodies. Once you realize that bodily existence is but a state of mind, a movement in consciousness, that the ocean of consciousness is infinite and eternal, and that, when in touch with consciousness, you are the witness only, you will be able to withdraw beyond consciousness altogether. (327)
Do realize that it is not you who moves from dream to dream, but the dreams flow before you, and you are the immutable witness. No happening affects your real being - that is the absolute truth. (333) The witness is not a person. The person comes into being when there is a basis for it, an organism, a body. In it, the absolute is reflected as awareness. Pure awareness becomes self-awareness. When there is a self, self-awareness is the witness. When there is no self to witness, there is no witnessing either. It is all very simple; it is the presence of the person that complicates. See that there is no such thing as a permanently separate person and all becomes clear. Awareness, mind, matter - they are one reality in its two aspects as immovable and movable, and the three attributes of inertia, energy and harmony. Awareness becomes consciousness when it has an object. The object changes all the time. In consciousness there is movement; awareness by itself is motionless and timeless, here and now. (233) The difference between the person and the witness is as between not knowing and knowing oneself. The person is in unrest and resistance to the very end. It is the witness that works on the person, on the totality of its illusions, past, present and future. (358) [The person and the witness] both are modes of consciousness. In one, you desire and fear; in the other, you are unaffected by pleasure and pain, and are not ruffled by events. You let them come and go. (190) The pleasure to be is the simplest form of self-love, which later grows into love of the self. Be like an infant with nothing standing between the body and the self. The constant noise of the psychic life is absent. In deep silence, the self contemplates the body. It is like the white paper on which nothing is written yet. Be like that infant, instead of trying to be this or that, be happy to be. You will be a fully awakened witness of the field of consciousness. (216)"

-N. Maharaj in "I Am That"

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by the key master » Mon May 25, 2009 8:55 pm

Interesting thread.

From HL's quoting of Maharaj,

"" I am not an object in Consciousness but its source, its Witness, pure shapeless Awareness. "

Source and Pure Awareness are not the same thing. Moreover, we are all objects in consciousness, namely bodies and minds, but we are also much more than this. More on this at the bottom.

"Awareness becomes consciousness when it has an object."

I do not agree with this, or at least take issue with the phraseology. As Maharaj himself states, "In consciousness there is movement; awareness by itself is motionless and timeless, here and now.."

All consciousness shares the same inexhaustible Source. In essence, we are all one, manifestations of Source. We are all Source. Only Source is. No Source, no consciousness, and hence no awareness. The human mind provides an avenue for Source to experience Itself as Itself. When the mind is pure, and the "person", not the body, but the story of separate self perpetuated through desire and fear is no more, witnessing, not a witness, but witnessing remains, pure witnessing. Source is reflected through the mind as pure witnessing. In essence all that is witnessed is seen as One, the same Source can be recognized in all. Through awareness or pure witnessing, the consciousness manifesting as the mind body is seen to be one in essence with all. Through the human experience of pure witnessing, the same Source is seen in all consciousness. Awareness does not become consciousness. Source already is all of consciousness, and pure awareness or a pure human mind is the medium through which it experiences itself. The human form senses oneness with all consciousness that is purely witnessed, not the changeless background of awareness.

As Tolle states, Presence is a "felt Oneness with Being." During pure witnessing, a connection within the body can also be felt. Pure Awareness is not Source. Source is quite beyond Pure Awareness.

Maharaj states, "Discover all that you are not-body, feelings, thoughts." Thats not right. Source is the body. Source is everything. The story formulated around the experience of the body is not you, but you most certainly are the body, but also much much more. You come to realize "the much much more" by realizing identity beyond mind body as Source, through the experience of pure witnessing or perhaps through some other Source experience. Too often Maharaj denies the body, rather than the story around the body.


-jason

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by HermitLoon » Mon May 25, 2009 11:51 pm

I respect your POV KeyMaster.

Pure Awareness is the Source - all that can be experienced arises within "it".
"Reality" is experienced when there is the total negation of the reality of all words/thoughts and hence absolute mental confusion.

As Maharaj later states:
" It is only by comparison with the past that you know that you are out of it. Otherwise, you are just yourself. Don't try to convey it to others. If you can, it is not the real thing. Be silent and watch it expressing itself in action."

Neti, Neti.

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Last edited by HermitLoon on Tue May 26, 2009 1:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by the key master » Tue May 26, 2009 12:59 am

What up HL,

Don't get me wrong, I could probably go through I Am That right now and find certain statements which mesh more fully with what I wrote above.

But awareness is a function of the pure mind. I myself have said that mind cannot be aware, that only awareness is aware. I step away from that. The thinking mind cannot be aware, but the still mind can. During the experience of pure witnessing, no-thought, or pure awareness, the human form connected with the brain which enables the mind to function also realizes Oneness with what is.
"Reality" is experienced when there is the total negation of all words/thoughts and hence absolute mental confusion.
I agree, except with perhaps the confusion part. Im simply taking issue with Maharaj' repeated assertion of not being the body, in addition to some of his other pointers. Neti, neti, ok. But punch me in the face and im going to punch, punch you back. Source divides in the world of appearances and consciousness manifests as form. The human mind engaged in pure witnessing realizes Oneness with all of consciousness, including the human form connected to the brain whose sense of feeling can be recognized by the pure mind. No interpretation, no thought, simply another aspect of consciousness at One with the totality whose Source is beyond all. Why the need to say you are not the body? The human form, like all forms, is a sacred manifestation of Source. What's wrong with acknowledging that? What's wrong with being human, in this world of appearances? Little consistency is all I ask.

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by the key master » Tue May 26, 2009 1:25 am

Be the body, be human, just not the thoughts or story surrounding the body. Neti, Neti applies to the thinking mind, not to consciousness experienced through pure witnessing. In pure witnessing, its everything everything. I am all and all is I. Nothing is mine but all is a manifestation of Me, of Source. Who carries out a conversation as if they were Source? Go beyond the world to help the world, but you gotta come back to the world before you can help.

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by HermitLoon » Tue May 26, 2009 1:28 am

There is nothing "wrong" with anything.
His point is that consciousness is a function of the brain/mind/body/Human Experience which - only as a passing experience - arises within the "True Self" of Pure Awareness - and he states "I Am That" - he comes to the realization of the essence of being.

This resonates very powerfully - for me - as coming as close to "Reality", "Truth", as words can.

"I know" nothing - "I am" nothing - and there is Pure Awareness - which is the common matrix - the "Oneness" - that unites all that "is"..

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