Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

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the key master
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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by the key master » Tue May 26, 2009 1:54 am

Hey HL,
There is nothing "wrong" with anything.
I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to Maharaj :D . Why not acknowledge being the body?

His point is that consciousness is a function of the brain/mind/body/Human Experience which - only as a passing experience - arises within the "True Self" of Pure Awareness - and he states "I Am That" - he comes to the realization of the essence of being.
Resonates for me as well, that the True Self of Pure Awareness alone experiences consciousness which can as a passing experience occur through pure witnessing of the human mind. I don't recall Maharaj ever stating anything about the Human Experience though. Can you point me to that? Relative awareness merges with Pure Awareness as long as the pure mind functions. Yet beyond Pure Awareness lies the Source of all consciousness, the Inexhaustible Potential for Pure Awareness to experience conscious Oneness timelessly through this moment. So, Source and Pure Awareness point to different concepts. Obviously words are limiting, but bare with me.

If one's awareness experienced Source beyond this world of appearances, the potential for the thinking mind to project the concept of Source would be apparent. Hence Maharaj identifies with the concept of Source and thus of not being the body. That's my point. Maharaj denies his body identity yet constantly spews forth his Source identity. His thinking mind should have done some Neti Neti with the Source concept.


-jason

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by HermitLoon » Tue May 26, 2009 3:07 am

1. I am not this person, this body-mind or any thing
As I can't be what I perceive, I am not this body-mind or any thing that I am conscious of.
As body, you are in space. As mind, you are in time. But are you a mere body with a mind in it? Have you ever investigated? Why not investigate the very idea of body? Does the mind appear in the body or the body in the mind? Surely there must be a mind to conceive the "I-am-the-body" idea. A body without a mind cannot be 'my body'. 'My body' is invariably absent when the mind is in abeyance. It is also absent when the mind is deeply engaged in thoughts and feelings.
You observe the heart feeling, the mind thinking, the body acting; the very act of perceiving shows that you are not what you perceive.
The perceived cannot be the perceiver. Whatever you see, hear or think of, remember - you are not what happens, you are he to whom it happens. Desire, fear, trouble, joy, they cannot appear unless you are there to appear to. Yet, whatever happens points to your existence as a perceiving centre. Disregard the pointers and be aware of what they are pointing to.
- from "I Am That"
Peace

the key master
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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by the key master » Tue May 26, 2009 4:01 am

Hey HL,

Maybe we should change the thread to Maharaj in a nutshell :lol:

The I-am-not-the-body "idea", Maharaj frequently states, works on the I-am-the-body belief which leads to the development and maintaining of the story of separate self. That's all the product of thought, and the identity which arises from those thoughts causes your true identity as a "perceiving centre" to be obscured. Maharaj articulates or points to true identity as Pure Awareness as well as anyone I've come across. I know Im not teaching you anything here. But to say "I am not the body" relatively simply isn't true. Even from the perspective of the Absolute the body is a manifestation of Source, of the One. Through pure witnessing the body is seen as one in essence with all, although there is no idea of being the body, or thought about being a separate self, the appearance of a separate body exists in this world of form just as much as there is an awareness of it. "My body" may not exist, but the pile of meat whose writing this message sure looks like what some might point to with the word "body". I wouldn't expect that to resonate or propel mass spiritual awakenings, as its so painstakingly obvious.

Here's my beef HL. Saying I am the Source of all that happens and I am Pure Awareness are 2 different things. When pointing the individual mind or witness to the experience of Pure Awareness the I am not the body idea becomes helpful. But Source is quite beyond the manifested world and thus awareness of the manifested world. Source is that which makes perception possible as its that which vibrates through all consciousness, while Pure Awareness is the experience of knowing oneself as a dimensionless perceiving center absent thought where all that is perceived is one in essence. Body and the manifested world are seen as one. Thought becomes unnecessary other than as a tool. Mind is no longer attached to the story of the body. Yet, as body and Source are one in essence, Maharaj was the body as much as he was Source. Body and Source are directly related as all objects in consciousness(including all bodies) are One in essence. Pure Awareness is the Human Experience of seeing and feeling Oneness with all that is. To say I am not the body is to hide out in some transcendant mind created illusion. I am not the body "idea" and saying I am not the body just aren't the same thing. If he's going to state I am Source, then he may as well admit that he is the body as well. I don't think I have anything else to say, or that I really disagree with anything you've said HL, not that what I call "your" body has been typing much haha. Later,

jason

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by Sighclone » Tue May 26, 2009 7:02 am

I'm hearing the Heart Sutra here: "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form." Source is both transcendent and immanent.

And by the way, it's my impression that the energy of Presence is moving more strongly in the world. No specifics, just intuition.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by OneLove » Tue May 26, 2009 7:30 am

What does source transcend? What is to be transcended?

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by Sighclone » Tue May 26, 2009 7:31 am

Maya is transcended by Source.

Here is a discussion from Wikipedia:

In Advaita Vedanta philosophy, Maya is the limited, purely physical and mental reality in which our everyday consciousness has become entangled. Maya is held to be an illusion, a veiling of the true, unitary Self — the Cosmic Spirit also known as Brahman. The concept of Maya was introduced by the great ninth century Hindu philosopher Adi Shankara.[2] Many philosophies or religions seek to "pierce the veil" of Maya in order to glimpse the transcendent truth, from which the illusion of a physical reality springs, drawing from the idea that first came to life in the Hindu stream of Vedanta.

Maya is neither true nor untrue. Since Brahman is the only truth, Maya cannot be true. Since Maya causes the material world to be seen, it cannot be untrue. Hence, Maya is described as indescribable. Maya has two principle functions — one is to veil Brahman and obscure and conceal it from our consciousness. The other is to present and promulgate the material world and the veil of duality instead of Brahman. The veil of Maya is piercable and with diligence and grace, may be permanently rent. Consider an illusion of a rope being confused as a snake in the darkness. Just as this illusion gets destroyed when true knowledge of the rope is perceived, similarly, Maya gets destroyed for a person when they perceive Brahman with transcendental knowledge. A metaphor is also given — when the reflection of Brahman falls on Maya, Brahman appears as God (the Supreme Lord). Pragmatically, where the duality of the world is regarded as true, Maya becomes the divine magical power of the Supreme Lord. Maya is the veritable fabric of duality and she performs this role at the behest of the Supreme Lord. God is not bound by Maya, just as magicians are not illusioned and deluded by their own magic.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by HermitLoon » Tue May 26, 2009 10:44 am

Hey KeyMaster :D
Maharaj does not deny the consciousness of mind/body in which "I Am" arises - he simply offers a broader perspective of "being" - like having a digital camera with an infinite "zoom" button - where there is the ability to "zoom out" beyond consciousness - indeed eventually even beyond the camera itself - while at the same time still knowing the "micro" as a part of the ""macro" - and that is a perspective "I" totally embrace.
Two of my favorite quotes that illustrate his perspective are:
(when asked who/what are you?) he replied "Nothing in particular - and yet I am."
and:
"That which changes is not real - that which is real does not change."

I have enjoyed this discussion with you and now sense that there is nothing more I can add.

Namaste and Peace
Peace

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Re: Ramana Mahrishi in a nutshell

Post by Glycine » Tue May 26, 2009 1:18 pm

I agree with you Jason.
The experience of being a body/mind is just as valid as the one of being consciousness/awareness. Someone may prefer one or the other at some point, but they are both "true." Both experiences come from the same "one source."
The same presence is always here, regardless of the form it takes.

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