You are Pure Consciousness

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lucy
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Re: You are Pure Consciousness

Post by lucy » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:06 pm

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your efforts to clarify this age old question. I am a huge fan of Never not Here and have watched almost every video taped interview they have, technical problems and all :D .

I did catch Peter's interview. It is not that I am not open to this or that the mind finds this distasteful. Experience has taught me that the gems usually lie just beyond what we classify as distasteful. What I have discovered after listening to many teachers is that there is a slight difference in the terminology they use. What Peter calls Consciousness is what in my view E.T. refers as Source, and many call it the Void. The Void or Source is what you are. Formless. It is a dazzling darkness (even that is saying too much). The Source is timeless. It is the Alpha and the Omega. In the timeless realm (your home) the essence of everything that ever has been and ever will be is eternally present in an unmanifested state of Oneness and perfection. Consciousness, the way ET uses it and the way I see it is the light emanating from the eternal Source. For anything to exsist Consciouness has to be present. Consciousness is not separate from Source hence everything that exsists has has God-essence.

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Re: You are Pure Consciousness

Post by CFSLosAngeles » Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:31 am

Hi everyone! Okay, here's the latest:
Below is a copy of my actual email to Peter regarding one member of this forum who questioned what Peter had to say. btw, I should mention that both Peter and I thought this was great! If you are scared of criticism, than you must not be on very secure ground (at least this is how I see it). Asking questions is THE BEST WAY to get to the truth. Anyway, I was going to edit out the stuff at the beginning of my email, the story about my neighbor playing the trumpet, but than I realized it might have some value to others. So, I have left it in.

Now, my email to Peter isn't particularly noteworthy. However, HIS RESPONSE IS (which he has given me permission to share). In fact, I am still trying to make sense of it! I am serious. It is some deep shit. It is genius or some of the best science fiction you have ever read. Either way, you're in for the mental roller coaster ride of "your life" (if you had one)... or not!
Please leave a response if you feel so moved and let me know what you think!

Love and Serenity,

Michael
http://www.mjeffreys.com



MY EMAIL TO PETER:

Hi Peter,

1) As I write this my next door neighbor is playing the trumpet! This just started yesterday. A few years ago this would have driven me absolutely nuts. I kid you not... I would have been over there banging on his door telling him he was disturbing the neighbors, to knock it off, etc.

However, my reaction this fine afternoon? I laughed.

No kidding. Why? Because I realized just how upset I would have gotten (I'm very sensitive to noises) in the past. Right now, I simply hear sounds arising out of pure emptiness and then going back. That's all. What's gone is the judgement that he shouldn't be doing this, or how much I hate it. There are notes, sounds, and that is all. And so I can happily go about my work here in my office and life is good. Who says this "stuff" isn't practical!? :)

2) Needless to say, your beautiful and detailed response to Lucy and Kiki (which I have read over several times) has generated several responses. Here's one from someone named Fenn:

The central assertion; Consciousness is all, is fine.

But that must include ALL arisings no matter their status. 'IS' means what is - isness!!

Otherwise we have a major dualism similar to the purusha (Consciousness), prakriti (matter) split of the Samkhya school.

In Buddhism this relationship between Awareness and form is central to its philosophy. That's why the Heart sutra states: Form is emptiness; emptiness is form. Not two!! Thusness (IS), AS IT IS! According to Nagarjuna, Nirvana is Samsara (this conventional world of phenomena) correctly 'understood' (i.e. empty of inherent existence and dependently arising.) Phenomena is not denied.

If the manifestation is to be deemed to be some kind of illusion, then at least acknowledge that it is a real illusion. The appearance clearly has some kind of ontological status in order for it to be known. The content of an illusion could be said to be unreal but the 'phenomenon' of the illusion itself, by default has a certain 'reality'.

This reality seems to be denied in Peter's book.

Fenn


So, my question to you Peter is: "Just where does "form" come from if not from ISness?"

Thank you my friend,

Michael


PETER'S EMAIL RESPONSE TO ME:


Hi Michael,

That's great to hear of your experience! Or maybe we should say an experience had by the "absence of you." It's so true. And this Un-ruffled-ness simply never fails to be!

As for Fenn's response/disagreement--it presents a wonderful opportunity. This is a classic case of semantics, and how a single word can be taken to mean different things. Fenn assumed he knew what I meant by IS, but the meaning intended is far different from that...so he never even "got" what was being said. That's NOT a fault of Fenn; it just shows how the conditioning we all seem to have in the human scene can really get in the way sometimes.

Let's try it again. IS means now, present tense ONLY. Is means having being, or presently existing. In IS there is absolutely no provision for passing time, past or future. The past would be that which is-not-anymore, and future would be that which is-not-yet. Time would be that-which-is-not. IS cannot be IS and simultaneously be is-not. I think most would agree with this obvious "truth."

In "discerning" Reality, IS has to be the "starting point" because otherwise you're starting with not-IS or is-not. How could that which-is-not be Reality? It couldn't because it doesn't even exist. Is-not means exactly that, non-existent, and non-existence is not even a status. If you try to say it has some status, even as an illusion, you've completely contradicted yourself because you're trying to say that, in some capacity, non-existence exists! Impossible--or else you have no idea of what is meant by the words you're using. This may sound "philosophical" but it's profoundly simple and true. Is-not is NOT an opposite of IS because it's not even around as "is-not" to be an opposite--even though we have to use such words for clarity.

So...starting from the only-ness of IS, some other things quickly become evident. IS is absolutely ALL that is. IS is present alone. This means IS does not co-exist with time. IS, (or NOW, the Present) is NOT a "fleeting now-instant" in a seeming time flow from past to future. Where IS is, (and IS is ALL that is) then time, is-not, simply does not begin or occur. Why? Because it is-not! It's the same as saying that the Present is All Presence. So how could time, not-the-present ever begin or occur, when it's never present anywhere to do so? Where the Present is present (and there is "nowhere" It is not present) then time, not-the-present simply cannot get its foot in the door because only the Present can be present! How could not-the-present be operating somewhere when it's never present to be operating?! This is clear ONLY when starting, or "looking out from" the Pure Present Itself, Pure Now-Awareness, or IS. It's the difference between functioning as a seeming thinking, believing mentality, or the belief-less Pure IS of Now-Awareness.

The fact that ONLY the Present can be present also means one cannot talk about, think about, mention, or try to account for "arisings" in Reality. Why? Because all arisings, all form, all manifestation require time, non-presence to occur. But where the Present is present, when does non-presence ever occur? It doesn't! And have you ever noticed a time when the Present is not present? It never happens! Time "pretends" to be that period when the Present is not absolutely all that is present--but, again, that simply NEVER occurs.

It sounds as if Fenn is saying that (I don’t want to assume!) because an appearance appears, it is present. Because I see a tree out in my yard, and ground, etc., all that stuff is present. If I have a dream, that dream is present. Sorry, it really isn't, even though we've been told and conditioned to believe so. It's not looking closely enough. ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING in the so-called material world whether "real" or "illusory" or ("real-illusion" whatever that means) can be reduced to energy, vibrating particles, always passing, moving on, in time's non-presence. ALL vibrating and form would take time, but, again, to IS, that simply doesn't occur.

Then the question becomes, "Well then how does all this appearing even seem to be here, if it isn't even occurring?" Who's asking that question? Is IS asking such a thing? No. In IS no time occurs in which a question could come up, or be answered! It seems to be asked by the same would-be mind, and it's asking because it's desperate to account for itself and its would-be activity and arising phenomena. But to entertain such questions, you have to first ignore your own Timeless IS-ness as Pure Awareness. The mind does not know that it never began. Not even IS is saying "the mind never began" because ONLY IS is--so there's nothing besides Itself to negate, and no time in which to do any negating.

Fenn said this appearance has to be accounted for, because if you don’t, "Otherwise we have a major dualism similar to the purusha (Consciousness), prakriti (matter) split of the Samkhya school." But wait a minute. As ONLY IS is to begin with, then there is ONE, and no possibility of a split. As only IS is, and no time world, no material world ever occurs, then where is the possibility of a split? There isn't. Nor is this a negation of such a thing, because how is it possible to negate that which never began? So there's no conflict. Sorry, that teaching, in trying to account for appearances has already ignored IS and tried to account for is-not, so it is in ignore-ance of ignorance of IS, Reality. The very notion of "teaching" should send up a red flag...Does IS need teaching in order to be? Who else is there besides IS to be taught? Is there another that is being, besides IS?

All the best,
Peter

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Re: You are Pure Consciousness

Post by Sighclone » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:00 pm

Michael and Peter -

Thanks again for this. And thanks lucy and James! It's really more than word wrangling, to my way of thinking. Oh yes, the world of thinking, that brings me to my question.

Peter is stuck. If there is no existence of anything which is time-dependent, then what is this forum, all of the universe, and all thought and shared memories? I'm not arguing with Peter's lengthy defense of Now and IS. I'm just asking if everything else doesn't exist, then what do we call it? Illusion? Dream? Samsara? Dutch Apple Pie?

And after we have some handy label, what should we be doing with it? Because if the argument that it doesn't matter, because it doesn't exist is strong enough, I'm sending it in to the government instead of my next tax payment.

I find it amusing that Peter needs a proxy to post here, by the way.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: You are Pure Consciousness

Post by Fenn » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:05 pm

IS means what is, AS IT IS.

Any interpretation (including this) of what IS is, arises in and as IS.

The rationalization that IS has "no provision for passing time" for instance, arises in IS-ness, it is 'downstream' of this immediate-ness, and is a conceptualization that has a certain logic to it due to the fact that time, past and future are also concepts.

IS is what is, however it appears - the rest is conceptualization after the fact.

--------------

It seems that we have three major possibilities.

1. Consciousness is all: Meaning ALL. Anything that appears whether deemed real or illusion (this deeming always comes later) is the play of Consciousness.

This with some variations and differences in ontology and terminology is the broad position of both Buddhism and Advaita.

2. Consciousness is not all: Consciousness and its objects are separate.

This is the position of some dualistic philosophies.

3. Consciousness is all - but only if 'all' excludes the entire manifestation in any shape or form, real or unreal: There is only "looking out from Pure Awareness". Anything that is 'looked at' (?!?!) is not only an illusion, but an illusion that never existed even as an illusion. So, participating on this forum, reading Peter's book, watching a sunrise, listening to music, being in the company of loved ones etc..... is not happening and could never happen NOT EVEN AS AN ILLUSION. So, just to go over this again... reading this... is not happening - NOT EVEN AS AN ILLUSION!!!

This third possibility seems to be the position of Peter.

How does Peter know all this? Well, he's worked it out. Consciousness appears as Peter presenting this formulation. But of course according to Peter's formulation, there can be NO POSSIBILITY of Peter's formulation!!


Fenn

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Re: You are Pure Consciousness

Post by Sighclone » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:08 pm

:lol:

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: You are Pure Consciousness

Post by James » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:41 pm

It is one of those paradoxes... I am not that which is temporary or passing, yet It includes all that is temporal and manifest.... I Am not this or that, yet simultaneously, I Am not separate from anything, any appearance.... I exist and yet don't exist... I know, yet really know nothing.

The words we speak (or write) are not facts or truth, at best they are approximations or pointers to the beyond, to the state of unknowing... the stateless state. So it doesn't matter much what we call this reality, what term we use. But any word or term we use is limiting, even the words Consciousness or Awareness. Thought plays the game of pretending not to recognize our true nature, so it seeks and defines, labels, categorizes, evaluates and compares. Thought plays the game well, we can honor it for a job well done. It is thought and language's nature to create divisions and a sense of separation, and language is inherently contradictory. This sense of separation creates drama and a play of form, the divine pretending it is something other... hiding and seeking.

It appears the existential drive is that at some point, we leave behind all external authorities and forget all that we have known and learned, even about what we call truth.... falling into the abyss of the unknown... discovering that what we are has always been here... the no self Self... the One appearing as many.

james
Last edited by James on Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: You are Pure Consciousness

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:51 pm

There seems to be a gap between Fenn's reality of illusions and Peter's take that illusions are illusions by nature and cannot be in any sense reality. There may however, be some middle ground. Regardless of whether illusions have any real substance in isness, the experience of phenomena, physical or imagined, is a real experience, as all experience exists in/as now.

That being said, dreams are real in the context of one's actual experience of them. They are not real in the context outside of the mind that imagined them. The question then is - are experiences real? Indeed, how could they not be in that as experiences they occur exclusively in the eternal isness? One cannot imagine an experience without having the experience of the imagining. Certainly there is a risk of being caught up in incessant imaginings distracting one from a clear perception of being present. But that is the nature of life in form and why there is a market for pointers that lead us out of the imagination trap.

None of it however, occurs outside of the present moment (the isness), for as it is often pointed out - past and future do not exist. What does exist however is present memories of past events (however distorted they may be), and possibilities of future conditions that may become manifest. It will eventually come down to how whatever manifests is perceived and, through that perception, is experienced. Then, how that experience is acted upon will influence the nature of future manifestations and one's experience of them.

The isness of being is not the end all of experience. Rather it is the ground of experience, and our conditional perceptions are crucial to the nature of that experience. Whether lost in thought identity or clearly present, life is creative. It is that creativity that steers the ship of being toward the possibilities of future landscapes of experience.

WW

lucy
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Re: You are Pure Consciousness

Post by lucy » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:44 pm

All I know is that no matter how hard it tries, the mind cannot figure this out. It is like giving a rubic cube to a monkey. This sounds like a cop-out but only to the mind whose agenda is to keep itself going.

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Re: You are Pure Consciousness

Post by karmarider » Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:02 pm

Sighclone wrote: Peter is stuck. If there is no existence of anything which is time-dependent, then what is this forum, all of the universe, and all thought and shared memories? I'm not arguing with Peter's lengthy defense of Now and IS. I'm just asking if everything else doesn't exist, then what do we call it? Illusion? Dream? Samsara? Dutch Apple Pie?
Hmmmmm....Dutch Apple Pie...
-Homer

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Re: You are Pure Consciousness

Post by ubuntu » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:36 am

I think it is a matter of perspective. In the time and space based world, the NOW has no time but in the NOW, everything or the potential for everything exists including time and space.
There is only one thing I am certain of, I exist and I exist NOW.

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