Difficulties accepting PON

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Invictus
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Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Invictus » Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:59 pm

Hi everybody,

I read PON a few months ago, thought it was very disturbing and tried to never think of it again. And I've just finished reading it second time round today.
Yes, it's still as disturbing as I can recall it!
The book startled a few preoccupations and I would appreciate a LOT if anybody was able to help.

To let you know where I'm coming from, I am a VERY future orientated kind of person (I sacrifice the present to achieve my goals - though I like my "life situation"). I'm also quite logic. I like sciences, I work with computers. So when ET talks about "inner energy", "divine essence", etc. I kind of get really stuck. I'm thinking "Proof please?" Often when reading I found myself in total desagreement. I was "resisting" his point of view.
Also if any of you have read "My stroke of insight"(by Jill Bolte Taylor) or seen her on Ted 2008 conference (available on Youtube) then I am much more confortable with her way of seeing things - The right emysphere of the brain is all about the "Here and Now", beauty, and creativity. So when I do my meditations (I have tried and i do admit totally that I feel much more relaxed and probably get a few glimpses of "Being") I don't believe that I'm getting more in touch with my inner essence but rather that my right emysphere is taking charge. Unfortunately, there is just as much proof about Jill Bolte Taylor's idea of the "Now" than there is for ET's. (I've bought a book called "The Time Paradox" (by Philip Zimbardo) and I hope that'll help). I think it's a great shame that ET used so much spiritual and religious vocabulary and references in his book as I truly don't believe you have to believe in that to access the now. Dysindentification to the ego, monitoring one's thoughts and to surrender to emotional conflits needs not a "mysthical" approach. I fear a lot of people will feel repelled by ET's approach of the subject.

I have a few questions;
1) Is the feeling of resistance not healthy? When I try to accept the present moment I feel as if I'm loosing my "drive". I will have no more motivation since I am fulfilled. From a Anthony Robbins approache, your drive is motivation by seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. If I accept my life situation then I will have no more pain to avoid and no more pleasure to seek. Hence no more drive.
Yet I can hear you say "But what will your current goals offer you that the present moment can't?". Purpose and self-esteem. Living in total inner peace is just one feeling. One amongst a range of possible feelings. What a dull life would I have if I were totally present.

2) My life's purpouse has always been to improve in all areas. I believe a 60 year old man should be more glorious than a man in his early twenties. What would I become if I were self contempt? I would just go and live on the beach for the rest of my life. What is the purpouse of people that are already fulfilled?
Note: This is probably why I have such a hard time not accepting ET's views.

3) Third question, and this is an anecdote. Isn't creating a community about being egoless a bit hypocritical? If one is part of a community is it not because he identifies to it? Do you not all view yourselves as ET disciples/learners? Is that not a mind-made self?

I have been judgemental in many ways but I have right to criticise. Also I hope, truly hope, I haven't offended anyone. Thank you for reading.

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Blackberry
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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Blackberry » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:27 pm

Hi friend. From what I understand. If you Deepen your inner peace you get the whole deal. The full package. You get more not less. You can still get things done. You may even have more to give your pursuits.

I think your resistance is ego.

The forum thing is just friendship and support. Don't be so cynical ;-)

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kiki
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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by kiki » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:49 pm

I have a few questions;
1) Is the feeling of resistance not healthy? When I try to accept the present moment I feel as if I'm loosing my "drive". I will have no more motivation since I am fulfilled. From a Anthony Robbins approache, your drive is motivation by seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. If I accept my life situation then I will have no more pain to avoid and no more pleasure to seek. Hence no more drive.
Yet I can hear you say "But what will your current goals offer you that the present moment can't?". Purpose and self-esteem. Living in total inner peace is just one feeling. One amongst a range of possible feelings. What a dull life would I have if I were totally present.
Resistance is the hallmark of ego, it is the tip off that one viewpoint and another viewpoint are at odds. Both viewpoints are just that, viewpoints. What are you before viewpoints arise?

Purpose and self-esteem are both egoic ideas as well - they give definition to who you think you are. What is it that seems to need purpose and high/good self-esteem? Who are you without ideas of purpose, without any self-esteem giving shape to ego?

Living in inner peace isn't just a feeling, it is the very nature of what you are.

"Dull" is a judgment; it means you are in thinking mode. What is present when thinking mode ceases?

2) My life's purpouse has always been to improve in all areas. I believe a 60 year old man should be more glorious than a man in his early twenties. What would I become if I were self contempt? I would just go and live on the beach for the rest of my life. What is the purpouse of people that are already fulfilled?
Note: This is probably why I have such a hard time not accepting ET's views.
There's no need to cease pursuing goals, to improve your circumstances. What ceases upon awakening is deriving a sense identity from attaining any of that.
3) Third question, and this is an anecdote. Isn't creating a community about being egoless a bit hypocritical? If one is part of a community is it not because he identifies to it? Do you not all view yourselves as ET disciples/learners? Is that not a mind-made self?
This community is about pointing to one thing, what you are. Lots of people come here looking for support in that, and that is what is offered here by many caring people. What is done after that is anybody's guess.

I certainly don't view myself as a disciple of anyone. That drops away. Who is the one that would follow another? Is that one real or only imagined, a creation of the mind? Besides that, ET certainly doesn't encourage anyone be a follower. That goes against the very thing he is teaching.
I have been judgemental in many ways but I have right to criticise. Also I hope, truly hope, I haven't offended anyone. Thank you for reading.
Just recognize what judgment and criticism are and how they help sustain the image of who you think you are. That is something that appears to stand in the way of seeing what you are in reality. Awakening is about living in reality rather than in a conceptual world.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
---

randomguy
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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by randomguy » Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:49 pm

Hello Invictus,
Invictus wrote:1) Is the feeling of resistance not healthy? When I try to accept the present moment I feel as if I'm loosing my "drive". I will have no more motivation since I am fulfilled. From a Anthony Robbins approache, your drive is motivation by seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. If I accept my life situation then I will have no more pain to avoid and no more pleasure to seek. Hence no more drive.
Seeing what we really are, here and now may indeed cost us the world as we conceptualize it. The influences of fear and desire may be seen through.
Invictus wrote:2) My life's purpouse has always been to improve in all areas. I believe a 60 year old man should be more glorious than a man in his early twenties. What would I become if I were self contempt? I would just go and live on the beach for the rest of my life. What is the purpouse of people that are already fulfilled?
I don't know. There may be no purpose, there may be no interest in what happens next, there may be no minding what happens now.
Invictus wrote:3) Isn't creating a community about being egoless a bit hypocritical? If one is part of a community is it not because he identifies to it? Do you not all view yourselves as ET disciples/learners? Is that not a mind-made self?
Investigating what is the "mind-made self" may be worthwhile. Is it what one does, or attaching to and believing thoughts that perpetuates an identity?
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

Invictus
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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Invictus » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:54 pm

Thank you for your time and for your insight.


The reason I picked up the book of my shelf two days ago is because on Friday or Saturday I had experienced a moment of Being. And I was whole, and I was happy, and I was reliefed and at peace. It happenned totaly by accident and I'm lucky because I'm able to recognize if it where to happen again.

However, making it happen consciously is not easy. Having to fully surrender is something I am working on. During meditation I can almost feel like i'm there, but I get a lot of physical tension in my forehead, cheeck bones and jaw bones, and I don't know where it comes from. As soon as I recognize it I go back into thinking mode. And that was when I posted this topic.

Kerry
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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Kerry » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:59 pm

Hi,

I thought you might find it interesting to know that I have on several occasions experiences the same tension feelings in my head or face. What I have done and seems to work is when the tension arises, I focus all of my attention on it. I do not resist it but rather look at it directly with a sense of curiosity. My mind will produce thoughts of analysis but I give them no attention. Usually the tension goes away within a minute or so. If it doesn't I may eventually shift my attention to another part of my body such as my hands. That one little feeling of tension can sometimes be interpreted by the mind as inhabiting our whole body. When we look at it for what it is while noticing the areas without tension 1)we accept what is and 2) we do not exaggerate the pain by experiencing it through the filter of our mind.

Good Luck :D

randomguy
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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by randomguy » Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:18 pm

Invictus wrote:During meditation I can almost feel like i'm there, but I get a lot of physical tension in my forehead, cheeck bones and jaw bones, and I don't know where it comes from.
In my case, I became aware of chronic body-mind tension that I had not noticed before.
If interested, this is the best guided meditation that I have found, True Meditation by Adyashanti.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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Sighclone
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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Sighclone » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:37 pm

Invictus -

Thanks for joining and your fine questions. I echo everything kiki said, as usual :) . You had an experience. Wonderful. That experience is over. It will never return. You may have other experiences. They will be different, possibly similar.

During the process of relieving years of egoic baggage, there will likely be somatic symptoms -- part of the deal. They are rarely dangerous. Maybe ibuprofin or some other mild over-the-counter pain-killer like aspirin might help. But somatic releases are perfectly normal.

Eckhart's "Gateways to now" CD is helpful. Discovery of one's true self is a victory for consciousness of such magnitude that all other strivings pale. And that victory is not achieved by any method "you" have used in the past...except since reading PON... :)

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by karmarider » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:27 am

My mind leaned towards science and skepticism as well. Science is about truth, not assumptions, but it too starts with the assumption of an objective reality and the nature of time. Those assumptions are cracking with quantum physics and repeatable experiments like the double-slit. The way I see it, awakening is more scientific than science, because it makes no assumptions at all.

Jill Bolte Taylor is a good place to start. Her experience shows us consciousness is not something we understand.

There is absolutely nothing mystical about awakening. It is simply natural being. It is natural and effortless. Tolle does use some "beautiful" mystical pointers such as being and inner energy. Some non-dual writers are more careful about words, but there really is no getting away from it. We communicate through symbols. Look past the pointers to what is being pointed to. Science uses whacky pointers as well: black hole, event horizon, collapsing wave functions, sum of histories etc.

Consider yourself fortunate that you are skeptical; it may help you avoid the common traps of spirituality and enchantment with concepts.
Invictus wrote:1) Is the feeling of resistance not healthy? When I try to accept the present moment I feel as if I'm loosing my "drive"...
My experience is that many of the old drivers do fall away. Awakening changes living in fundamental ways: what you consider important now may no longer be; friends change; careers change. This does not equate to no more motivation. Inspiration rises, actions happen--there is no struggle behind it. Inner peace is not a feeling; it's being. You can be inner peace and still have intentions and goals.
Invictus wrote:2) My life's purpouse has always been to improve in all areas...
Re-learning how to be at our most natural seems to me to be the ultimate in self-improvement.

Invictus wrote:3) Third question, and this is an anecdote. Isn't creating a community about being egoless a bit hypocritical? If one is part of a community is it not because he identifies to it? Do you not all view yourselves as ET disciples/learners? Is that not a mind-made self?
An ET disciple/learner would certainly be an ego identity.

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Sighclone » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:04 am

An ET learner is a life/Being learner. That would be all of us whether we understand/experience that or not. People waking up have experiences in common and may want to chat, create internet forums, etc. No associated labels have any more "adhesive" than "bus-rider," "tax-payer," "wage-earner," "book-reader," "father," "mother," "questioner," etc....

And none of us are any of those labels, anyway.... :)

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

Invictus
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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Invictus » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:57 pm

Hi all

Thank you for your help, I value everybody's perspective!

"Awakening" needs time. I have suficient knowledge to transition into the Present, seeking more knowledge equals putting off the possibility that I can acces the "Now", now. What I mean is that no external source can make my internal change happen, it has to come from within. And so I'm working on that.

I still have tensions when I meditate. It's like trapped energy that doesn't know where to go. Very hard to explain. However I'm starting to get an understanding of ET's teaching. I'm getting better at focusing on the present moment. Yesterday, during meditation my body felt limitless and just kept expanding on and on. I got excited and thought "Ha! Yes! It's happenning!" and just like that I got push out of the state and tensions arrised again.

I had an epiphany this morning by the swimming pool, when I realized that I used to adapt to my circumstances ("life situation", possessions ...) whereas I now feel that I am the center and my circumstances adapt to myself. It was a weird feeling very hard to describe. Before I was walking through life, always adapting, whereas now my "life situation" is adapting and I am still.

I feel like I'm getting closer, but the closer I get and the more I want to be there. Thus creating resistance by projecting myself in the future and denying the Now. It's confusing! But it's something that has to be realized from the inside. Until I get a true feeling of being in the Now I won't come back to this board. Because everytime I do I seek help and seeking help is looking for change from external sources. Change can only arise from self-realisation. From inside myself.

Thank you for your help,

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Onceler
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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Onceler » Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:34 pm

One step toward, two steps back.

I have found that the two steps back are the most important....
Be present, be pleasant.

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by randomguy » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:18 pm

Ha. That's excellent, Onceler.
Invictus wrote:From inside myself.
Yes, I found that to be the way. Investigating in a sort of very sincere curiosity, an uncontrolled noticing, letting everything be, all that is perceived, all that is thought, leaving it alone.
I can see what you are saying about staying away from other people's advice. Self surrender does not come from believing other people. There is no clarity to be gained by believing. There is not a statement by any teacher that is to be believed. There is no thought that clarifies through the belief of it. Clarity reveals itself when the habit of believing thought succumbs through investigation to the habit of not believing thought.
Invictus wrote:Until I get a true feeling of being in the Now I won't come back to this board.
If this is not perceived to be obeyed, nothing will hold this against you but your own mind, nothing but a thought that is believed. Self investigation, Self surrender doesn't seem to require goals and motivation, but instead a surrender to what is, now. The body-mind seems conditioned to do, to shrink from pain and gain more pleasure while operating upon the concept of time. Surrender is not a traditional body-mind doing, rather a discovery of what is always present, finding what is always noticing everything that there is to notice. It is a remembering of awareness itself, remembering what is aware of the entire body-mind, remembering the underlying awareness that precedes the entire conceptual and experienced world.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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Marcel Franke
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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Marcel Franke » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:59 pm

Onceler:
>I have found that the two steps back are the most important....

Like, hell, that didnt work either....
---ooOoo---

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Ananda » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:29 pm

"Until I get a true feeling of being in the Now I won't come back to this board."

Who are you, in relation to the Now?

Are you here now?

Are you presently in the past or the future?

Are you thoughts or the thinker of thoughts?

Where is the Now? Over there in the room? Inside your body? Inside thoughts?

Find out! :D

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