Difficulties accepting PON

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by kiki » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:28 am

Hi Wings; nice to see you here again. Great post.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by HermitLoon » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:59 pm

Beautiful clarity Wings - somehow you and Kiki are able to come very close to expressing in words what is "real" :) Thanks
Peace

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Sighclone » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:23 am

Welcome back, Wings...welcome home. I am one of the guilty ones. Words, words, words... How can words help us escape our minds? How, indeed?

Oh well...that's what we have - a forum full of written words. Maybe we need a new rule: Only poetry is allowed. :) Or "Only the space between the words is allowed!" :D

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Ananda » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:33 am

"How can words help us escape our minds?"


Now why would you need to do a thing like that? :P

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mistral
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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by mistral » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:06 pm

Sighclone wrote:Welcome back, Wings...welcome home. I am one of the guilty ones. Words, words, words... How can words help us escape our minds? How, indeed?

Oh well...that's what we have - a forum full of written words. Maybe we need a new rule: Only poetry is allowed. Or "Only the space between the words is allowed!"
Words are wonderful, enjoy---Awareness reads these words---no one else. Awareness ‘belongs to’ God and God alone.

Everything that appears to be ‘out there’ is actually Here within This Awareness I Am (you are)---not much sense in ‘condemning’ the appearances or making ‘them’ the bad guys. Yes, there may be words that are more honest statements of Truth ---but then, sometimes even the worst of words can turn us around and See The Light. There may be some folks who make a more Honest statement and there may be those who do not make Honest statements, but the final Truth is that all their words and those folks writing the words are appearing here and now because of This Awareness I Am (you are)---This Life is The Divine Solipsism---God’s and God’s Alone---One Divine Being and Its Images, Mind, Ideas, Appearances; sometimes appearing as written and spoken words in a million differnet ways.

The value is not in the image. Nor is the power---images cannot alter or change This Awareness that is being ‘them’, ever. The value is forever in the Awareness, which belongs to Godhead, The Ineffable Living Presence being This Awareness "you" are,

All that we call words, forums, readers, writers, or any other name is only an infinitesimal aspect of the Self's tangible declaration of Its Self-- and tangibility is only part of it. There is the intangible That "which is above them all"-the Deific Selfhood which is being all there is to the external tangibility of "form" or to the internal intangibility of imagery.

Sometimes certain words are priceless and I thank God for them. The Light of Life will often appear to me in certain words that were so filled with Truth and those words can actually bring me to the full recognition of my True Self, (once again)---Certain words that are so very God-Honest---I have been slammed up the side of the head and woken (once again) by the thunder of certain words and I have been gently and peacefully pointed in the direction of recognizing my True Identity by other certain words---I am astounded and always forever grateful for each and all those certain words that bring me back to Where I Never Left.

Some writers are true artists who can string the words just right so that one can hear the whole symphony and not just the single notes.

Or as some other wise men have stated there is no observer and the observed; there is no ‘other’ reading the words, and the words are not separate from who you are—Self alone is Here. ---the observer is the observed.

We are complicating things by believing the words are the ‘evil culprit’ we forget about This Awareness that resides as the center of it all. This Truth goes but barely noticed. Awareness reading the words is Here and Now being All that I am---This One and Only Observing Awareness goes on being the Identity we are anyway, whether we are conscious of it or not. And all the trials and tribulations that come along with our claim of the limited identity's experience are here to serve us; our insistent and persistent claim to a separated identity, a 'big bad ego' is what always brings us to the consciousness of the greater Identity-the one that is real; the one that has never been guilty of ignorance, or wrongdoing, or too many words, or dishonest words, or mean and rotten words, or anything else we beat ourselves up for.

No matter how you slice It, It always turns out to be Wonderful and Marvelous and Perfect.

Mistral

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Wings » Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:53 pm

Kiki, Hermitloon, Sighclone et-al

Hermitloon, I read your blog and Kiki’s great piece. I was taken back, in a way, as if like Kiki, I and so many others had traveled every highway and byway, every back road and alley in every city on this planet and landed up in our back yards in a small town called “Presence,” and at the crossroads of “Simplicity Ave. & Awareness Road,”! Very Cool… Through the years, the roads traveled at times were full of potholes, detours, confusion and riddled with doubt and sometimes dead ends caused U-turns seemingly into oblivion but yes, they were very special but not exclusive roads. They are heavily traveled roads that provided road maps with sign posts sometimes ignored or not seen but after years of wearing out shoes and burning out tires, one sometimes discovers their place in life has always been in their backyard…..

Kiki, Sighclone, Erick and other moderator’s endurance, and stamina, to me, is amazing. For a number of years NOW, you’ve helped hold and guide the reigns of the freedom train out of confusion and into a land of simplicity where being and awareness grass grows taller and greener. I’ve been gone for awhile, but not really, let’s just say I found pastures satisfying enough to graze and feed myself something also well needed and nourishing. You and others are true wagon leaders, coping, guiding, and sometimes enjoying the company of others who share a bit of enlightenment.

As for myself, not all my days and nights are uneventful; they continue to be as before with one small/very giant difference, peace and awareness is screened through a nature less alarmed by patience needed to see the unattractiveness of negativity. Its not bulletproof but nor is it supposed to be, why, because I’m alive and live within the same realm of human kind.

Presence, awareness and more (as we know) are mere word-tools that are ancient but it’s our lot. Although words are archaic, there are enough of them around, to tell us about the power found in silence, stillness and accepting ones-self without the flash, and the drum roles images unconsciously need for us to buy into. The human clutches of emotion still edge-in periodically, but are short lived by my “peace and awareness posse!” Please excuse the levity, but entertaining ones-self does puts a little more kick in ones step while not taking myself too seriously and strolling around the block.

Your company, your presence and just knowing you’re out there is something akin to down-home. We share something which is best when just felt but yet the camaraderie, the arguments, the discussions and all that goes with it gets your attention and from time to time, like an interloper, I ease drop and just listen to (as Sighclone nudged) the clear telling of the sounds and silent moments between the words……

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Sighclone » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:16 pm

Nice notes, Wings...glad to have your little drop of the ocean show up again.

Mistral - the dear mistral! Of course words have stunning beauty...I was actually trying to be funny. Words were my portal. Big minds need words to help shut them down.

But silence is better still....

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Invictus » Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:44 pm

Hi all,

Up to now I've always difficulties with ET's teaching. I knew his methods of being in the now where solid. But I disagree with the conclusions he draws from the state of presence.

Many claim they have found God, or that awareness "belongs to" God, or they are God's essence themselves. I have no evidence that God doesn't exist, nor can anybody have proof that he does. You just believe it or you don't. Obviously ET believes in it. And that is were some people, like myself, may get turned off.

But I have good news for those who've had difficulties with PON because of it's religious and spiritual way of seeing things.

I've read a book called My Stroke of Insight, by Jill Bolt Taylor. As a scientist she has a different approach to the situation. Basically she uses the same stuff as ET does (being the watcher, dissacotiation from the mind(kind of) and from thought). But she uses scientifical evidence to explain the phenomenon of being in the Now.

However if you're OK with PON's spiritual nature. Stay away from Jill Bolt's book because it will just be confusing for you, since you'll have two radically different explanations of the same phenomenon and you won't know what to believe.

Final note:
I don't say to believe in religion and spirituality is wrong. Simply that the spiritual approach of explaining "enlightenement" isn't suited for everybody. I only offer an alternative. I've ordered The Time Paradox (sorry can't remember author) a week ago and I'm still waiting for that. If I read I'll let you in on how usefull it was.
If you feel frustrated... you might want to watch that :D

Peace

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Sighclone » Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:54 am

Invictus -

Great to have you here. Controversy is ok, when expressed with clarity and respect. I have read JBT's book and seen her videos. She, by the way, concedes to the spirituality of her experience, particularly in her videos.

But what we are talking about here, in one aspect, is the mental concept called "belief." No respected nondualist wants you to take "on faith" anything he or she says. Do you "believe" in gravity? Of course you do -- you have experienced it. JBT experienced her event and explains it with brain physio-chemistry. Fine, as far as that goes. But the vast majority of readers know nothing about that, or have only a dim understanding. So then we are stuck with another loaded word: "Spirituality." Definitions of that word touch on such things as "mystical, divine, paranormal, transcendant, angelic, Satanic, revealed truth, soul-plane, ghosts, mediums, occult, etc." All red-flag words for scientists. But the bottom-line of nonduality is your personal experience. If you have an experience of awakening (even a kensho or satori) or a full-out jnani explosion, you may choose to explain it using whatever formal language (scientific, Sanskrit, Zen, Dzogchen, Advaita) you choose. And it will be appreciated more by those (from whatever level of consciousness they approach it) who resonate with your understanding.

Brain-wave studies have been done. Self-realized people have very different patterns than the average. Even long-time meditators show significant differences. Of course there will be a physiological reflection in form...deeper cross-lobular harmony, more theta, etc.

I hope you are not sugesting that since there was no understanding of the bicameral brain in 600BC that Buddha did not awaken...

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Marcel Franke » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:31 pm

Invictus seems a man of Logic,
and not to fond of God.

My personal feeling is that Eckhart is not much hung up on the label God.
I think his God is called Now.
However, I can imagine, that falling into clearness, experiencing its peace,
and loving the mystery of it, one might be inclined to call It Sacred.

Now,
right now, I am here, or, there is something here, on toplevel, or,
there is awareness, there is this total experience, there is this beingness.

I sit on a chair, and I think the above,
(after all, I have got to start/stop somewhere),
and then there is that -experience-.

-It- does not have a specific boundary, it has no specific place, or a specific moment in time,
there is no specific individual attached to it, it is all there is,
there is no division, no levels, it is everything there is.

But I cannot see any way of proving this with Logic.
I cannot prove the fact of this presentness.

(Yes,-It- may harbour boundaries, places, moments, etc.; but thats just thinking.
And thinking, It also harbours; but again, thats just thinking.)
---ooOoo---

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Invictus » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:29 pm

Hi again! :)

Who ever you've learned from - JBT, ET, the Buddha... - they all describe the same state of presence. Their words all point towards the same direction.
However they don't use the same terminology or rationalizations to explain that phenomenon. Some ways of teaching are more adapted to certain people, that's all.

I'm not saying JBT speaks the truth more that ET does. They both tell the truth as both lead to the state of Presence. There's is no one single way to awaken, their are many ways. JBT is the best suited for me I find. The Buddha had his way and I'm sure that was adapted to him too :mrgreen:

I still have ONE thing that bugs me. And I really can't see how to get around it. No matter how appealing the teaching would be to me I would always have this problem:

Is it good to live 100% in the present?

Think of great men like Gandhi, Martin Lutter King, Einstein, etc. If they felt totally fulfilled, and peaceful. Would they have fought to give their best?

If you are at peace and totally fulfilled, you don't need to strive for a better life situation. But what if your goal in life is to help others and contribute to mankind like MLK, Ghandi or Einstein did?
In some respect it is almost a selfish act to be fulfilled. You only care about your own good. If your mission in life was to help others, by being fulfilled that mission is seriously compromised.

Insights are more than welcomed! :D

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by mistral » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:52 pm

I do not think we can live anywhere else but in the Now, in fact. We can think of past and future, but we can only do it NOw, and there is no other time than This.

I agree, Now and God are interchangeble words. There is nothing else but Now and It includes All Time, Infinite Light, Forever Then and Will Be---Now is Infinite, that is why we can think of all kinds of things about a future, but we can only do the "thinking about" Now. That is remarkable and beautiful, and That is Godliness in all Its Glory.

As for the "God" thing, Life Itself and God are the same thing (because Life is So Awesome and such a mind-blowing mystery itself, and because Life 'just is' and there is no one who can find the Source of It, or the "why of IT" or the "how of It', not even the most educated scientists in the world. If you wanted to find the beginning of Life, you could not, because how would the 'thing' that began it have begun? There is no end to this thought; the beginner (creator) of Life would have to be begun by Something, and then that Something would have to be begun (created) by Something Else, and so on and on---thus, we can surmise by all logic that Life has no beginning, that would be impossible, therefore It has no end, and is not 'material' is not 'matter' and must be that It is All in all and Clearly All That Is---now That Fact is so immense and incomprehensible and Awesome, I have no other word but to call this Living Truth "God".

And as Andy says "you believe in gravity" so in the same way for me: I "believe in" Life, because I experience It. Life for me equals "God Itself" just because for me that word connotes "Awesomeness" or "Great Mystery" "Infinite, Eternal, Without Beginning, Unpossessed Power, MInd (Life and Its Self Awareness is what we are experiencing---and that is 'where' all things must inherently come from). If you want to read a really clear explanation of this there is a little book called Two Plus Two Equals Reality---The author has given us some wonderful analogies that make such profound sense and help to bring a genuine understanding of 'who we Really Are’ The book is by William Samuel (you can find a Free PDF download on the William Samuel website). It is written in the 1960's but it is absolutely True yet and still Now. http://www.williamsamuel.com
Read it, its free (in his book section) and you will find it quite senseable and liberating.



Douglas Harding says it beautifully in the following piece:

This Amazing Realization
Why or how Consciousness should arise as it does from the blank inane Here, as it's doing all the time, is just incredible mystery. And if you call this God, I'm sure that God is absolutely astonished by his own impossible feat of self-origination. He doesn't know how he does it. If he knew how he did it, he would be missing out on the greatest joy imaginable, which is the wonder of Consciousness arising from Unconsciousness for no reason and with no help.

Human beings are so incredibly blasé. You show them something like this, and they say, "So what! What are you going on about? Of course Being has to be. Consciousness has to exist. Isness is natural." I think that God's hair stands on end in wonder at her own self-invention. It's impossible! It's that wonderful. Gosh, let me live from this realization, this astonishment.

Put it like this: we congratulate ourselves on various things, don't we? I congratulate myself on being English, perhaps. Ha ha! I congratulate myself on being male, which is even more ridiculous. I congratulate myself on not having Alzheimer's too badly at this time. A million things we congratulate ourselves on, give ourselves good marks for. But there's one thing that's superb, and we never realize what an incredible thing it is: I Am. I've occurred. Not I am this, not I am that, but just I Am. That is the great Marvel. I Am! After that, a billion universes are chickenfeed.

This is so important for me because it puts in perspective my troubles. A reality that can get off its own launching pad with no help and for no reason and invent itself and get cracking and produce the kind of universe we have - I trust the One who can do that. I'm not going to get too bogged down in the silly, quirky little details of Douglas's nonsenses. I'm not going to take my little self and my troubles so seriously, now. I'm awake to this astounding miracle going on Here all the time. This mystery of what's behind the I Am puts the I Am and all other stuff into perspective, and my problems become peanuts in the light of this amazing realization. (Douglas Harding)

Love Mistral
Last edited by mistral on Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Marcel Franke » Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:55 pm

Vic:
> Is it good to live 100% in the present?

You -are- 100 percent living in the present, whether you like it or not.
So, if you like, you can do some planning.
That might be quite sensible.
But there seems to be a constant struggling of foreseeing problems in the future,
trying to avoid problems that might do damage on a personal level.
But this foreseeing, and this attempt to avoid, can only be based on past experiences.
Therefore the future is already made dead, as stale as dead moth.
And for a lot of people thats how life feels.
Struggle and dullness.
Besides, that personal level I mentioned, is a persona based on that same past.
So you identify yourself with something that is already dead.
Thus, many of us are lopsided, living in the now, but constantly missing a lot,
living in the narrow alley of past,
thanks to this almost automatic protection feature called ego/mind.
And it is failing, for it is making us miserable.
---ooOoo---

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by Sighclone » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:26 pm

Invictus -

The fundamental question to ask Ghandi, Einstein, Mother Theresa, or yourself is "Who am I?" If anyone says: "Well, I'm a 48-year political activist in post-war India now trying to change history," or "I am a 48-year-old pysicist now living in Princeton, New Jersey, who has just written the most important document in modern physics," or "I am a 48-year old renunciate nun who has devoted her life to helping impoverished people, wich considerable success..." If they say any of those things they are all wrong.

The basic nondual message is profoundly radical. You are not a person. Person-hood is a figment of mind (or collective minds in civilization, society, language and culture.) You are simply Self, pure awareness, Stillness, Being, all-that-is. Little egoic "me" is an illusory mental construct, supported eagerly by other illusory mental constructs and richly conditioned by life in samsaric time. Jiva (soul) forms from Self for rediscovery, according to Ramana Maharshi. The presence of fully enlightened gurus, meditation and chanting, breath-control, body-consciousness all help, but the final step is taken in pure solitude.

I'm not there. But I've read most of the modern and much of the ancient literature. It's a hobby. The discovery of quantum physics starting about 1905 ended the claim of science to explain fundamental reality with formulas and principles and laws. The addition of the consciousness of the observer to the equation (Heisenberg and the Copehagen Interpretation) opened the "doors of perception" if you will. Good starting points for this perspective are Kafatos and Nadeau's "The Conscious Universe" and Goswami's "The Self-Aware Universe," A busy, funny approach is also found in the hefty "My Big TOE (theory of everything)" by Thomas Campbell."


But trust your own path and experience.


Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Difficulties accepting PON

Post by randomguy » Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:35 pm

> Is it good to live 100% in the present?

That's sort of like, do I want this, do I want to know? It a great question, maybe the best. That peaceful "wholeness" experience that starts us down this road. That's not it. Truth lies beyond that, beyond all experience and concept. Everything ends up questioned. Read some past posts. Many claim there is no going back. Byron Katie says truth enters your mind like water into rock. It's gentle nature is more powerful than everything you consider certain. Everything you consider certain is not true when seen by Reality. Do you want to go there? It could mean the death of the glorious 60 year old identity and everything he thought he was.
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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