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Feeling

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:12 pm
by OneLove
When it comes down to it, practicing the PON eliminates all feelings from you. No more anger, resentment, jealousy, sadness, rage, excitement, happiness, joy, etc... When it comes down to it, all the good feelings in life exist because they have an opposite (duality), so when you get rid of the bad ones you also are getting rid of the good ones. I think that 95% of people practicing the PON don't see this at all. When you get to the end you won't feel anything. Do you really want that?

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:14 pm
by OneLove
You guys should watch Equillibrium, a very good movie which illustrates this point very well.

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:18 pm
by Plorel
When you get to the end you won't feel anything.
Thats probably why people like Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie etc. seem like dull robots, never laughing, never smiling, never having fun, just sitting motionless around with drool running down their chins.

Sry, coudnt resist the irony ^^. In my experience, joy and gratitude is what is left when all stories are gone. So have fun with it :)
But I agree with you the Equilibrium is a good movie!

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:27 pm
by karmarider
My experience is different. Feelings don't go away. A feeling is a set of body-sensations--a message from the body. In awareness, a feeling is felt; body sensations are experienced and recognized as a message in the Now. The message is not labeled. In awareness feelings may be felt even more intensely, and from a much wider spectrum, because we are no longer afraid of any feeling. A feeling is always in the Now.

Emotions are when we connect thought-stories to feelings. The thought-stories and body sensations energize each other, and the pattern is remembered, and labeled. It come up again more easily each time and it influences and energizes other emotions. When we can see an emotion as the pattern of energetic loop between thought and body sensation, we can easily release. This is why release techniques such as the one on my website and Sedona are effective.

Yes, many emotions go away or become very short-lived. Anger, annoyance, recurring anxiety, fear, insecurity, dread, fear in its many forms (separation, future, past), regret, remorse, guilt, woe, why am I the way I am, why is my life the way it is--all of these diminish or go away. And yes, emotions which we consider "positive" diminish as well: the giddy sort of egoic happiness, the temporary happiness which comes when the ego feels in control, or is approved of, and so on. And probably because of this, many drivers fall away.

Jac O'Keefe, Jed Mckenna, and Gandhi are good examples of the awakened who express feelings.Tolle's mind-body is not expressive.

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:50 pm
by OneLove
Plorel,
Plorel wrote:Thats probably why people like Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie etc. seem like dull robots, never laughing, never smiling, never having fun, just sitting motionless around with drool running down their chins.
Plorel, I believe it's completely possible to feel like a dull robot and not look like a robot. Have you ever laughed at a joke you didn't think was funny for example? Outer appearances aren't really the best indication of whats really going on inside. I've been going on 7 or 8 months now carrying on a pretty normal disposition but feeling almost completely empty on the inside. No, I don't drool on my chin or piss my pants or anything like that. It's very possible to hide this kind of stuff, so if you think ET and Byron Katie feel great all the time you should really ask yourself how you can know this for sure.

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:51 pm
by OneLove
BTW Plorel, how well do you feel that that movie relates to the whole of spirituality?

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:55 pm
by kiki
When it comes down to it, practicing the PON eliminates all feelings from you. No more anger, resentment, jealousy, sadness, rage, excitement, happiness, joy, etc... When it comes down to it, all the good feelings in life exist because they have an opposite (duality), so when you get rid of the bad ones you also are getting rid of the good ones. I think that 95% of people practicing the PON don't see this at all. When you get to the end you won't feel anything. Do you really want that?
I respectfully disagree with this. PON and awakening reveal that "you" are not a mentally based entity, so when emotions come (and they do, even if they are fleeting) you no longer get trapped in them. You no longer identify with the dualistic feelings that you mentioned - they are seen for what they are. They come, they go and there is nothing clinging to or resisting any of it while You/consciousness/ awareness remain untouched by any of it.

karmarider expressed it well:
Yes, many emotions go away or become very short-lived. Anger, annoyance, recurring anxiety, fear, insecurity, dread, the fear from separation, fear of the future, regret, remorse, guilt, woe, why am I the way I am, why is my life the way it is--all of these diminish or go away. And yes, emotions which we consider "positive" diminish as well: the giddy sort of egoic happiness, the temporary happiness which comes when the ego feels in control, or is approved of, and so on. And probably because of this, many drivers fall away.
Whatever is felt is felt consciously rather than being driven by conditioned reflex; in other words, they are no longer "unconscious" reactions. What replaces the euphoric highs is a calm and abiding peace and stillness. That peace and stillness remains even when there are the more "negative" feelings and circumstances, so you don't get trapped by any of it and identify with them anymore.

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:02 pm
by OneLove
karmarider wrote:My experience is different. Feelings don't go away. A feeling is a set body-sensations--a message from the body. In awareness, a feeling is felt: body sensations are experienced and recognized as a message in the Now. The message is not labeled. It is felt fully and it is released. In awareness feelings may be felt even more intensely, and from a much wider spectrum, because in awareness we are no longer afraid of any feeling. A feeling is always in the Now.
Emotions are when we connect thought-stories to feelings. The thought-stories and body sensations energize each other, and the pattern is remembered, and labeled. and it influences and energizes future emotions. When we can see emotions as the pattern of energetic loop between thought and body sensation, we can easily release. This is why release techniques such as the one on my website and Sedona are effective.
Yes, many emotions go away or become very short-lived. Anger, annoyance, recurring anxiety, fear, insecurity, dread, the fear from separation, fear of the future, regret, remorse, guilt, woe, why am I the way I am, why is my life the way it is--all of these diminish or go away. And yes, emotions which we consider "positive" diminish as well: the giddy sort of egoic happiness, the temporary happiness which comes when the ego feels in control, or is approved of, and so on. And probably because of this, many drivers fall away.
Karma, I read the book, I understood it, I lived it. Most of what you just typed out to me was just regurgitated theory. Perhaps I can rephrase my question and you could state your point?

All emotions are eliminated, nothing strong gets left behind. The question is do most seekers truly understand this and is this what most seekers really want?

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:08 pm
by OneLove
Ok Kiki, I pretty much agree with what you just said. The only thing that I might disagree on is peace. We say that in the absence of emotions/ego is peace but is peace really that good? Peace is still a dualistic word (the opposite of peace being chaos/disturbance/agitation). We put value on peace, saying this is more desirable than it's opposite. This is still dualistic! What happens when you transcend peace as well? Things get completely subjective!

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:20 pm
by kiki
Trying to describe any of what remains in the absence of the other things is impossible. We are left with words, which are inherently dualistic, so that's what we're stuck with. Stay out of the concepts altogether, but if you do describe it good luck because it will be conceptual only. It's the concepts that are tricky and subjective, not consciousness itself. It is neither tricky nor subjective.

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:59 pm
by Ananda
OneLove wrote:Ok Kiki, I pretty much agree with what you just said. The only thing that I might disagree on is peace. We say that in the absence of emotions/ego is peace but is peace really that good? Peace is still a dualistic word (the opposite of peace being chaos/disturbance/agitation). We put value on peace, saying this is more desirable than it's opposite. This is still dualistic! What happens when you transcend peace as well? Things get completely subjective!

Peace and bliss are of your nature. There is no opposite to that, no end reward of desire or payment for effort. Emotions are not eliminated, they still come and go. Peace doesn't come after any sort of absence of emotion, it's not a culmination of steps. Emotions are irrelevant to that deep peace which comes from abiding in one's being. The emotions are limited and fleeting, the depth of your being is eternal and beyond all else.

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:00 am
by karmarider
OneLove wrote:Karma, I read the book, I understood it, I lived it. Most of what you just typed out to me was just regurgitated theory. Perhaps I can rephrase my question and you could state your point?

All emotions are eliminated, nothing strong gets left behind. The question is do most seekers truly understand this and is this what most seekers really want?
What I say, I say from personal direct experience. You have "lived it" then you know it is impossible to describe non-dualistic being with dualistic concepts such as "emotions are eliminated" and "nothing strong gets left behind" and whether seekers truly understand what they seek. Of course they don't. Concepts cannot contain it; only experience can. The dualistic mind cannot understand that the seeing through of emotions does not equate to a spice-less existence.

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:44 am
by mistral
OneLove wrote:When it comes down to it, practicing the PON eliminates all feelings from you. No more anger, resentment, jealousy, sadness, rage, excitement, happiness, joy, etc... When it comes down to it, all the good feelings in life exist because they have an opposite (duality), so when you get rid of the bad ones you also are getting rid of the good ones. I think that 95% of people practicing the PON don't see this at all. When you get to the end you won't feel anything. Do you really want that?
That all sounds true intellectually and logically, but it is not true.

You can and do have all the joy and happiness and emotions and feelings that are Good without the 'bad' ones---really, you can.

They are The Genuine Good Feelings. The ones that God is the fullness of. Love, and kindness and thoughtfulness for others, caring about others, and even caring about things, animate and inanimate---its really pretty wild how Wonderful , full, rich, meaingful, sensiitive, feeling It all gets.

As Kiki said, there is a Tranquility and Peace that transcends the opposites, and I would call it very assuredly Joy and Happiness. Genuine laughter, joy filled, delightuful, excited happiness that is not dependent on anything 'out there' to bring it about. Its within and Its Real.

A fount of Holy Grace and Love and The Child's Joy always spewing forth

I feel like a kid again, the first time at Disneyland. Talk about exciting! Everything is alive with Joy and Wonder. Alice in Wonderland is more like it---or Mr. Toads Wild Ride---The Magic Kingdom. Who, as a child, was not thrilled by Disneyland---and Now here It is Again. And everyday is Disneyland and I don't even have to go there, its All Right Here and Its Alright Here---Singing the Song of The I-That-I-Am in everything.

Endless Beauty Am I---who would not be thrilled with That.

It may even be a life of more Feelings, beautiful wonderful feelings (with no opposites) than one would have ever thought could be. Honest.

Or in other words Praise The Lord! and Hallelujah! God is Good and Thank you God, Father of Life, the Joy, Light, Truth and Enthusiasim of My Soul.

Love, Mistral

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:57 am
by lucy
OneLove wrote: When you get to the end you won't feel anything.
Hi OneLove,

It has been my experience that once the interpretation of thought falls away(almost all feelings and emotions are preceeded by a thought) a clear space is made to feel whatever is happening more intimately, more intensely than ever before. It is a feeling of being totally naked or vulnerable to whatever is arising. The protective shell (ego)falls away leaving "one" totally exposed.

Re: Feeling

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:50 pm
by Onceler
From my meditation journal:

Old joy. Joy of being runs deep and is old and fresh at the same time. Out of time. It is not an emotion but that from which emotions come. Drop the analysis and give up utterly. The old joy is then there. It is still, it vibrates. Mute and laughing. It gushes from itself.