Accountability vs Oneness

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RCharles
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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by RCharles » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:20 pm

Thanks for the responses. I do understand what you are all saying now, especially you, karmarider. I see now where you were coming from and why we had a disconnect. I appreciate your explanation of the conceptual I. This is more or less the viewpoint I expected and which is often expressed on this forum.

I am suggesting a different viewpoint in which we check the truth of the oneness experience by use of the rational mind, and we check the truth of the rational mind by the oneness mind. Otherwise, how can we be sure that our perception of reality makes sense, no matter which mind we are using?

I know, I know, you all would say, there is no making sense, there just is. I can see that viewpoint, when I meditate, for example. But how do I know those perceptions are true? For example, if I perceive that I am god during meditation, how can I check that reality to make sure it's not just a pleasant hallucination? I use the rational mind to analyze the experience and compare it with facts, such as the knowledge that I did not create the universe (or at least, I don't remember doing so), so it's likely I am not God. Similarly, how can I know that my rational concepts are reasonable? I use the oneness mind to check and counterbalance the rational mind. This leads me to see that although I am not the Big Mind God, I feel at one with God, so perhaps I am one of the gazillion incarnations of God (thanks Mistral), a small-mind spirit who was created by and is a part of Big Mind God.

I know that's a lot of conceptualizing, but how else are we to know truth? We cannot accept any old mind experience or hallucination as truth just because it is a pleasant experience of oneness. We must have a means of checking it. Using all the tools my mind provides, including both rational thought and oneness mind, provides that means of testing reality. It gives me at least two points of view, each of which can I can use to test the other point of view.

Does this give me an absolute check on reality? No, as you said, karmarider, there's no way to be 100% certain of truth. i think you said, what can the mind know [I would add, with certainty]? How can I tell for sure whether I'm hallucinating every bit of my reality? I can't, but when my mind's different viewpoints converge and verify each other, there's a reasonable chance I'm finding truth at the nexus.

Thanks again,

RC
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

lucy
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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by lucy » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:07 pm

RCharles wrote: if I perceive that I am god during meditation, how can I check that reality to make sure it's not just a pleasant hallucination?
Anything perceptual is not it. So if you perceive that you are god during meditation, it may well be just a pleasant hallucination.
RCharles wrote:I use the rational mind to analyze the experience and compare it with facts, such as the knowledge that I did not create the universe
Knowledge is just a set of beliefs that you have acqured. It is out-dated. What you are is fresh and alive in the moment.
RCharles wrote:I use the oneness mind to check and counterbalance the rational mind
Forgive me for saying this over again, since I'm sure you have already heard it millions of times. There is no mind. Thoughts arise, linking them together is our conditioning.
RCharles wrote:This leads me to see that although I am not the Big Mind God, I feel at one with God, so perhaps I am one of the gazillion incarnations of God (thanks Mistral), a small-mind spirit who was created by and is a part of Big Mind God.
In ACIM there is a line in there that states "It is not our darkness that we fear, but our light". I am going out on a limb here, RC, so forgive me if I am wrong, but it may be helpful to examine why you seem to find it more comforting to "play it small".

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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by Sighclone » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:35 am

A continuing society of ego-identified people needs a moral code. RC, do you need a moral code when you experience unity?

With permission from the publisher, may I quote a section from John Prendergast’s and Ken Bradford’s “Listening from the Heart of Silence.” This is from their introductory essay titled “Toward An Embodied Nonduality: Introductory Remarks.” It is just about the finest essay on this elusive subject I have ever read.
It is one thing to thoroughly wake up to one’s true nature as the formless ground of being or no-self; it is another to actualize or embody this awareness in one’s daily life and in relationships and to transpose these changes to collective societal structures.

Each body-mind holds different degrees and kinds of conditioning, both individually, and collectively, from sources as one’s multigenerational family of origin, genetics, socioeconomic class, collective racial, ethnic and national histories and even possible “past lives.” In a curious, awe-inspiring, and humbling way, each of us carries the collective conditioning and heritage of human evolution within our multidimensional body-minds as a kind of hologram.

The deeper the awakening, however, the less we are identified with this conditioning. It may still arise, but just as we awaken from or within a bad dream, we are not bound by it.
RC – your questions of accountability presume a chooser…a person who elects to be accountable. Nondual teachings suggest that that ego-self-defined person is replaced by a different sense of being, which, once realized, acts without regard to a set of moral codes needed for a civilized society. There is some irony that self-realized behavior is very loving and inherently sensitive to “natural law” or accountable, moral action.

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

Robin
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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by Robin » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:59 pm

Hi

First things first. Be, live and experience oness being. Be the "I AM" and then do what you want. You might find out that everything has consequence but thats ok too, dont controll it. Be Jesus and get crucified, be a Martin Luther king and get shot.
Be a Bill Gates and become rich, be a Judas and häng yourself, become a soldier and shoot people....see what happens...maybe you feel a hero....maybe you become deppressed...maybe you get killed....rape, murder and steal if you want....see if oness want that....love, bless and heal....if you want. You love what you want,you want what you love.

Peace
Robin

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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by karmarider » Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:22 pm

Awareness can and does check the truth of the "rational mind." This is what awakening is. When we can abide in presence, awareness sees the delusions of the mind.

To a small extent, the rational mind can check the truth of awareness. When we experience Truth, the rational mind can check it, and label it "Oneness" or "awareness" or "presence" but the rational mind thinks symbolically, and the rational mind bases its truth on a bunch of concepts and assumptions, such as delusional I-concept and the superstitious notion of time, the past, memory and conditioning. This is wonderful for reading bus schedules and building nuclear bombs, but not so good for experiencing the truth of existence.

Truth is not at the nexus of the rational mind and awareness. In Awareness, we see the rational mind doesn't even exist; it's just a conceptual label we give to a bunch of ephemeral objects and their interactions. Krishnamurti said "Truth is a pathless land." There is no path from the rational mind to awareness. We can use the rational mind to some extent to verify awareness, and in fact this is what we do when we write and talk about awareness and presence, and this is how we come up with symbols like "God" and "Oneness" and "nonduality". Some people cling tightly to these concepts; this is the only obstacle there is to getting into the flow awakening.

Nothing can ever be verified. There is awareness. All experience is always in the Now. I exist. These three statements are axioms--not provable or unprovable.

Beyond that, nothing can be known or verified. Can it be that awareness is just another delusional experience. Of course it can.

But, can it be seen that all of this is just mental manipulation of symbolic truth? Can we witness this driving need the "rational mind" has to try to understand? Can we watch the need to reduce everything to concepts?

randomguy
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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by randomguy » Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:48 pm

karmarider wrote:the superstitious notion of time
I like that one.
And it's still digesting in thought...
Do the yellow-rose petals
tremble and fall
at the rapid's roar?
- Basho

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RCharles
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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by RCharles » Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:24 pm

Thank you all for the wonderful responses. Believe me, I read each one with great interest, but time limitations prevent responding directly to each post.

If I were to write about oneness on a science forum, I'd expect to get very rational and skeptical responses. It's the reverse here. If you write about the usefulness of the rational mind as a balance to unity mind, you get only skeptical unity answers. What I was trying to convey was something close to Jill Bolte-Taylor's message that both capacities of mind--rational and unity--constitute the full beauty of human capability and both have their usefulness, sometimes separately, sometimes at the same time, and they can function as check on each other. Eckhart even talks about the usefulness of the analytical mind, when it is used appropriately and not allowed to constantly dominate the mind.

I hoped not only to posit these ideas but also to challenge some here to question their own concepts derived from their oneness experiences. Every one of us understands and interprets the nature of the oneness experience through the filter of the rational mind, whether we think we do or not. If you say, "There is no mind," you are interpreting (as karmarider also pointed out). So if you are going to interpret anyway, why not be conscious about it and rationally question whether your interpretation is accurate? What information do you have that confirms your interpretation? Have you asked yourself whether there other ways of interpreting the experience? Are some more valid than others? Are all valid? None?

That's really all I was getting at--bringing some balance to the forum. Ultimately, each of us has to understand oneness in our own way. I suggest doing it consciously through personal investigation and analysis rather than taking a guru's interpretation or a forum's consensus as gospel.

And as I said previously, I'd rather rest in oneness than analyze it, but both have their value--for me at least.

RC
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by lucy » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:17 pm

RCharles wrote:Ultimately, each of us has to understand oneness in our own way. I suggest doing it consciously through personal investigation and analysis rather than taking a guru's interpretation or a forum's consensus as gospel.
:D As a great one said "the purpose of an outer guru is to awaken the guru within". Once this is awake inside you, the questions fall away.

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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by RCharles » Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:06 pm

I love your posts, Lucy. I don't always respond, but I do note them. Lots of wisdom! :)

RC
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by Sighclone » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:47 pm

RC -

If everyone presented his or her challenges and arguments as thoughtfully and repsectfully as you do, even in the most polar disagreements, there would be pure compassion in every post in this forum. Personality remains after self-realization; sometimes even more energy is present. Yours is a delightful model.
That in itself is a conundrum--if all is oneness, why do I experience the limitations of physical form and an individual mind instead of being able to be present everywhere and think with the mind of God?
Paradoxes exist only in the rational mind. Your sense of self-identity will remain after the final veil falls. You will still answer the phone, "Hello, this is Richard." You will still experience what appear to be "individual" thoughts. But tell us more about the "mind of God." Does God know what Caesar ate for breakfast on April Fool's Day 230BC? Does God know who will win the Preakness next year? Did God create the universe as a separate "thing?" What if only your definition/concept of "God" knows that? What if "God" is a verb?

Here is a quote from Jac O'Keeffe on Lila in Maya, or "life" in the phenomenal world:
Seeing this great show for what it is brings relief and freedom. It is just a movie, a great gig to offer the capacity to fully experience all that you can imagine. When it is seen to be no more than a series of thoughts believed into experience – it’s just impossible to take it seriously. The fun of creation is there to be enjoyed. What you are radiates by itself. In the emptiness of no personal thoughts all is enjoyed, life is fun and beautiful.
Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

lucy
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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by lucy » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:14 pm

Thanks RC, and I have to agree with Andy, you are one classy dude.

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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by Mesquared » Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:55 pm

I agree with Lucy. You remind me of student99 on the Oprah ANE Boards. :)

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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by RCharles » Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:04 am

You are all so kind. Thanks for the wonderful encouraging words. This forum is a very rare "place." :D
RC
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:59 pm

RC, nothing in creation remains the same (for long). It either gains or loses growth, developement, organization, etc. (See Thomas Campbell's entropy discussions)
RC wrote:Every spiritual system from Christianity to Zen includes some kind of moral code to which individuals are held to account by a higher power, greater good, God, whatever you want to call it. In fact, every society assumes individual accountability for our acts. If we break the law, we receive some form of punishment. If individual accountablity were not a fact, no social order would be possible.

Both experiences--Oneness and individual accountability--are "true" and yet they are contradictory. In my own world view, I can accept this conundrum. I think and experience with the limitations of an individual. I cannot think with the full mind of God--the Consciousness that guides the universe. Therefore, I can accept that the universe runs on principles my individual mind doesn't understand and cannot completely reconcile. (That in itself is a conundrum--if all is oneness, why do I experience the limitiations of physical form and an individual mind instead of being able to be present everywhere and think with the mind of God?)
As Self-aware consciousness the perceptions that we hold, and the assumptions that we make, move us into a greater alignment with Source, or are disruptive to that alignment. The actions we take in our daily lives are representative of our core perspective and are funamental to that alignment process. Moral value is just a general term that references that which moves us (or believed to move us) toward greater alignment with source, verses that which moves us out of alignment. One could also say that our perspectives and actions move us toward oneness, or into degrees of isolation. Right and wrong are merely perceived directives toward or away from greater oneness.

There is no punishment for sins per se. What there is is a cause and effect relationship from our actions that move us into or away from greater alignment (oneness) with Source. The punishment, if any, is the natural experience of isolation and the self inflicted pain that results from a confused and judgmental mind acting in ways that cause the isolation. The good news is that it's a "self-correcting" system. The pain we experience has a strong influence on our inclination to look for better answers.

The first step of course, is to get clear of the misperceptions of mind and live in aware presence - the now. Which perceptions of mind are mis-perceptions? Probably all of them. That's why we need a healthy relationship with silent being. It is in silent presence that clarity and alignment with source flurishes.

WW

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Re: Accountability vs Oneness

Post by OneLove » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:21 pm

So your wondering how to reconcile the fact that living as if everything is one evades moral responsibility? Well, I think it\'s obvious that if you cut all ties to everything in your life and you don\'t believe in good or bad then you obviously don\'t believe in personal or moral responsibility. We\'re all one so nothing really matters anyways.

There is no reconciliation. If you don\'t believe that you exist than nothing matters to you and you don\'t have to listen to anyone. Maybe this isn\'t such a good idea.

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