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Just a Clarifaction

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:37 pm
by OneLove
When you have an ego you don't answer to any authority. You don't listen to your mom, your dad, your friends, your boss, the cops, the politicians, the clergymen, your girlfriend... You don't even have to listen to your self. An egoless person acts through some force, some of you call this God/source. I'm sure everyone will agree on what I just said.

It's said that this God/source manifests itself in all of creation and that all of creation is under its control. It's also said that creation can manifest itself in any way it wants to. My question is that if we allow ourselves to have God/source take control doesn't that lead to the possibility of absolutely anything happening? I'm imagining some pretty gruesome scenarios here folks, and the problem is that most spirituality says "it's ok". So if source decided for us to be a society of baby eaters then we would allow it to happen and be totally cool with it. If source wanted us to kill ourselves we'd do that too (reminds me of the Heavens Gate incident). And if source wanted us to end the world in a nuclear war then we would do that too. The possibilities are just endless and without duality we allow simply all of them. I see this as an incredible flaw which more than likely proves non-dual spirituality as false.

Many people are biased towards good words and thoughts like peace and love, but it's hypocritical. Peace and love are generally considered good. Good is the opposite of bad. Good and bad are a product of dualism thus non-dual spirituality is actually dual!

Re: Just a Clarifaction

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:02 pm
by karmarider
There is duality built into your exploration. You are objectifying Source--as something separate from us which can control us or make us do this or that.

You say everything would be allowed--but everything is allowed. Maya is allowed. The condition which humanity finds itself is allowed.

Good and bad are indeed judgments. But it is the dualistic mind which says that since good and bad are equal, then Mother Teresa is equal to a pedophile. It is a dualistic understanding of non-dualism. There isn't anything that is good and there isn't anything that is bad--that's not the same as saying good and bad are equal.

Godel (and then later Alan Turing) have proved that Mathematics cannot be complete. Mathematics can never describe reality. By extension, the intellect cannot understand awareness. No intellectual argument will satisfy.

Re: Just a Clarifaction

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:30 pm
by OneLove
Where does this idea of source come from? There's no way we can experience the vastness of the whole universe from our daily perspective. There is no way that we can say that we are everything! It is utterly false. There are "other things", this is THE most apparent thing.

Re: Just a Clarifaction

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:52 pm
by mistral
"This 'me' who contains awareness is an impossible impostor and a liar from the beginning. It is no more possible to imprison the Divine Awareness of Infinite Being and confine it within an object of its perception than it is possible to confine the alphabet to the letter A or jam the infinity of arithmetic into one number. All there is to 'mankind', to the old man who needs to be put off, is the belief that this Awareness here and now reading these words is confined within a body—that is beholden to a body—that it is the servant of a body—that it is the function of the body's brain or a personal mind.

To accept such a state of affairs as fact is the cause of mankind's troubles. It is like attempting to look at Infinity through a knot-hole, like looking at the infinity of arithmetic through a single number called 'me'. To accept such a state of affairs as fact would seemingly reverse Reality; it makes a multiplicity of singleness and brings space and time into being with beginning, end, birth, death and duality ad infinitum.

The principle of arithmetic cannot be stuffed into a number. The number is 'in' the principle. The number has no mind of its own and only the principle is being anything at all. There is no beginning or end to any of the numerals because a beginingless and endless principle is continually being ALL it is, including an infinity of perfect numbers.

The view of the universe via a possessed, imprisoned Awareness is called the 'human experience' and it is fraught with endless perplexities. To end the perplexities, one stops believing himself a separate ego who is aware. One identifies as Awareness Itself. This one will discover himself unconfined, uncontaminated, unfettered and free. This one will discover that the only Awareness going on is God's Awareness of being all God is."

excerpts from 2+2=Reality by William Samuel

This is just a small excerpt, but you can read the whole booklet it is free on his website You will find a lot of clarity upon reading this booklet---I think it would help bring some peace of mind and joy to you.

http://www.williamsamuel.com/booktitles.html


Love, Mistral

Re: Just a Clarifaction

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:17 pm
by kiki
What a wonderful quote, Mistral. Thanks for posting.

Re: Just a Clarifaction

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:39 pm
by kiki
Where does this idea of source come from?
Where does any idea come from? Where are ideas found? Is that seeming existence of an "idea of source" permanent or only fleeting? Don't they just come and go? What doesn't come and go?
There's no way we can experience the vastness of the whole universe from our daily perspective. There is no way that we can say that we are everything!
One's "daily perspective" comes through a mind/body. Are "you" either?

We are no thing appearing in the physical universe, yet nothing in the universe is separate from consciousness - there can be no appearance of anything if not for consciousness/awareness. All such appearances are mind based only, they are only perceptions that have no separate existence apart from mind. What isn't mind based is what "you" are.
It is utterly false. There are "other things", this is THE most apparent thing.
Stay out of identifying with anything perceived, for all of that comes and goes; what you are doesn't.

Re: Just a Clarifaction

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:10 pm
by karmarider
Perfect quotation, mistral.

Re: Just a Clarifaction

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:11 am
by OneLove
kiki wrote: Stay out of identifying with anything perceived, for all of that comes and goes; what you are doesn't.
You are what you percieve!!! Perception is reality! there is nothing else! You say you are awarness! But what is awareness? Awareness is something seen. Put your finger on awareness. You can't. It doesn't exist. It's all just nothingness! Why would you want this to be any more obvious than what it is? It's ludarcris! Reality is awefull and ego exists to help us cope with it. The spiritual community has it ass backward.

Re: Just a Clarifaction

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:43 am
by kiki
You are what you percieve!!! Perception is reality! there is nothing else!
If you are what you perceive then you would be the entire physical universe, or what you could perceive of it. Earlier in the thread you asserted this isn't possible and now you have reversed yourself. You said, "There's no way we can experience the vastness of the whole universe from our daily perspective. There is no way that we can say that we are everything! It is utterly false." Now you are saying that you are what you perceive. Which position are you taking? You seem awfully confused.
You say you are awarness! But what is awareness? Awareness is something seen.

No, it's not something seen. It is "knowing-ness"; you can't see that, but it is apparent, it is present. If not for awareness you wouldn't be able to "know" that thoughts, ideas, sensations, emotions, or objects were present. Isn't that obvious? It's so basic that people fail to grasp the significance of it.
Put your finger on awareness. You can't.
No you can't because it is not a thing, not any sort of form. Being formless you can't isolate awareness from itself to observe it; besides that, with what would awareness be observed other than awareness itself?
It doesn't exist.
.

Awareness doesn't exist? How would that even be known if not for awareness/consciousness? Try to deny your own existence. How would you know if you were successful if not for awareness?
It's all just nothingness! Why would you want this to be any more obvious than what it is? It's ludarcris! Reality is awefull and ego exists to help us cope with it. The spiritual community has it ass backward.
I can't speak for "the spiritual community", only from the clarity of understanding that comes to me through direct experience of awareness. Perhaps it's your faulty understanding and beliefs that gives rise to this awful reality you are experiencing.

Are you here to investigate or just throw out ideas and see how people respond? If it's the former then I'll help as best I can; if it's the latter then I'll stop responding.

Re: Just a Clarifaction

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:59 am
by borris83
My question is that if we allow ourselves to have God/source take control doesn't that lead to the possibility of absolutely anything happening?

This is a misunderstanding... By awakening, you are not giving the control to anything... But simply, there is nobody to control... The person who thinks 'I am in the control of my thoughts, my body and emotions' will be found to be missing, and it seems that you are trying to mentally grasp what will be remaining inside you when this person is missing...

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa use to say a story about a salt idol trying to measure the depth of the ocean.... A mind trying to grasp what is beyond it, is similar to this story of the salt idol...
So if source decided for us to be a society of baby eaters then we would allow it to happen and be totally cool with it.
I used to watch Discovery channel, especially the shows about animals and planets, and used to wonder about how everything is perfect in nature... Just the other day there was a show on how a wasp, a kangaroo, a penguin and a shark gives birth to its young one, and it is really amazing to see how everything is perfectly designed without a 'somebody' involving in it... World can be beautiful and perfect without any 'somebody or something' trying to control...

And, now it seems to you that you are controlling your life and it is actually an illusion... Even now, the reality is, you are not making your life to happen.... We seem to have a lot of choices to make everyday, but if you look at it deeply, you will understand, you really don't have choices.. For example, you think 'let me go for a walk now', and it seems to you that it is your choice... But how did that thought occur to you? Why didn't you think 'Let me go to shopping?'... Whenever any thought comes to you, is it really your choice to make that thought to happen?

Now, you have asked a question in this forum.. It seems that it was your choice to post in this forum. But how did that choice making happened? Look carefully if there is really somebody to make these choices in your everyday life...

Another thing is, most of the people think that all these teachings about awareness are 'teachings'... They are not 'teachings' even though they are called in that name.. Eckhart and other awakened people are not really saying what you need to do... They are not saying 'so far you have lived in a way which is not right, you have live this way'.. Their books are tools to turn your attention towards something that you have rarely noticed...
You are what you percieve!!! Perception is reality! there is nothing else! You say you are awarness! But what is awareness? Awareness is something seen. Put your finger on awareness. You can't. It doesn't exist. It's all just nothingness!
This is again an attempt to trying to make awareness as a concept... If you try to make all these things as concept, that they will sound nonsense to you... Because, it is natural to think 'why all these fuss about awareness and why to give much importance to the awareness and presence?'... Yes, you are right in a way because you should never give importance to the awareness, because then you are conceptualizing it... You are right, but what you are saying is incomplete...

If none of the things talked about in forum seem to make much sense to you, then it is perfectly okay.. Just live the life in your own way and there is nothing wrong in it...

But if you can make some sense out of all these things but still seems to be vague, then just allow the vagueness and confusion to be... Keep inquiring but never come to any conclusion, for or against....

Re: Just a Clarifaction

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:02 pm
by Sighclone
OneLove -
Reality is awefull and ego exists to help us cope with it.
I'm assuming from this comment and earlier ones that life ain't great for you. I also sense that you are pissed off at God, whatever that concept is for you. I also believe that you have come to this forum for some kind of help. If I'm wrong, and you just want to fight with people, not approach the truth, please be honest about that, with us and with yourself.

Try this: Sit quietly and dwell on the "awfulness" of reality. Not any thoughts which surface, but the feeling of awfulness. For ten minutes. Suck that feeling in. Let it flower immensely, let it be as big as it can. Sit right in the middle of it. Dwell in the awful feeling.

I only mention this because I have found, as have many others, that the feeling itself, and its impact recede.

Now address the thoughts behind the feeling: What has happened in your life to reinforce your anger and hostility? Has your ego been a contributor to any of your problems?

Andy