Know Who You Are

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Webwanderer
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Know Who You Are

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:23 pm

If one lost the ability to think, yet were clearly aware and intelligent, what would that be like? Stop here and take a moment to get a sense of that.

Isn't that the essence of who/what we are but with the additional quality of thinking, and feeling as well? The distraction from our natural state comes from the perception and belief that we are the perspective created by the thoughts and feelings themselves, rather than the awareness through which those thoughts and feelings flow. Recognition that we are not the experiences of those thoughts and feelings is the domain of the natural state of clear awareness.

Take frequent moments of thought-free awareness to rest in the clarity of who/what you are - clear intelligent awareness. Know that all thoughts and emotions present within awareness, no matter how real they seem, are but temporary clouds passing in an eternal sky. They will not last, they cannot last. They are but temporary perceptions fueled by the belief they are real. Only the natural state persists, and the natural state cannot be known in thought - but only in the clarity of thought free moments.

Look for yourself. The truth is right in front of us, but it cannot be found in thought. It is thought that leads us away from the clear intelligence that we are. Familiarity, frequency and ultimately, consistancy, with our natural state keeps thought in perspective and useful in managing the conditions our world.

Take a moment, rest in clarity. Repeat often.

WW

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by enigma » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:57 am

The person, the mind, cannot rest in Awareness. What seems to give mind it's reality is mind's objects, and there are no mind objects in pure Awareness, and so there is no rest. The question then becomes, why would mind seek to rest where it can't even exist? Of course it would not, and so what is it really seeking? I suggest it is seeking another 'mind object', namely the experience of pure Awareness. The next question is, is the experience of pure Awareness, Self realization? I suggest it is not.

Instead of a practice of resting where one does not want to rest, I suggest noticing that whether or not mind rests is really irrelevant. If you were mind then of course it would be important, but you are not and so it is irrelevant. Could it be that 'something' is at rest all the time regardless of whether or not mind is at rest? What if you didn't have to do anything at all to mind, but just notice that you are already resting in, and as, Awareness? Would anything need to change?

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by arel » Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:24 am

Source and its direction thru attention is all that exists.

Again I see two different prevalent perspectives here above, Webwanderer and Engima. One is "for practice", another for "anti practice". Both are valid I believe. Both are very personal, both coming from the truth as I see it.

I think those for whom awakening was a relatively significant event are likely to have significant bandwidth of attention on them Selves. Relatively constantly. Conditioned. The others of us, the "pro practice" bunch, need a body habit to reclaim some attention to themselves. Both are intimately personal experiences, and neither one is righter then the other.

There is no complete realization until the very human death I believe. I do think it is possible to consciously go very close to that. I see how many of the gurus have gone there, not necessarily very known ones (but very "known" nevertheless I imagine). I think we have our own gurus on the forum here to...

I wander how many people read this forum, how many unique hits... I would suggest people who write on here make it clear that you come from personal experience. And that there is more then one that can lead to Self Realization... or not. One does unite us all tho, human death. But no one who has died, has been able to write back or talk about it. As far as I know, of course :)

"Source and its direction thru attention is all that exists"
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by enigma » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:31 am

Source and its direction thru attention is all that exists......

Both are intimately personal experiences
Oddly, I guess, I don't talk about personal experiences much. I'm not sure how they apply to anyone I might be talking to. I'm not sure how they apply to anything, which is one of the points I keep jabbering about. Mind seeks personal experience which is the basis, not only of practices, but of 'being in the present' for most. (Daniel is a good example of that but by no means the only one)

The failure of the person to arise is an incredibly subtle thing, though it's not uncommon for all of us. It's subtle because there is no person jumping up and down declaring the success of his practice designed to cause the absence of the self. It is subtle because there is nobody present to notice that nobody is present.

Practices are not subtle because mind is not subtle, and it's always mind that does practices. What I'm suggesting is that some are trying to pick flowers with a bull dozer, and there's a reason you keep smelling diesel fuel instead of daisies.

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by mistral » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:29 pm

enigma wrote:What seems to give mind it's reality is mind's objects, and there are no mind objects in pure Awareness, and so there is no rest.

For me, awareness IS everything, is being all objects, all things, includes infinity of things---and I am the only one I can speak for, but for me this is true--- because if you really think about it, everyone of you are within my awareness, every word here that I read and the passing up of some, and the colors and the light and the computer and the room I am in and the sounds of a car door opening and the tweet of bird and blue sky out the window, tree and leaves I see out the window, and distant rumbles afar, breath, feel of keys, clicking of keys, truck passing by the house, thoughts moving along, reading 'your' words and thinking oh "got to go into town today, got to go to the bank-- imaging the drive to go pick up some things that are some distance from here, i can see roads in my mind, i can envision the drive----at the same time trying to think how to write this and have it make sense, inept typing skills, daylight beginning to brighten the sky, a lovly day outside, smile, silence, and not silence-- both at the same time--son walks in room, talks to me, his words, his voice, his precious 'son-li-ness' all within my awareness----

But, here is the thing; I cannot really ever ever know if I am within 'his' awareness, or yours, I can only know that I am aware and all things that i am aware of are very certainly within in this awareness----All this is within My Awareness and I do not know any other awareness, I have always been aware, I cannot remember not being aware, I cannot remember something before I was aware, but I can delightfully enjoy imagining all sorts of things---I can imagine the deep, infinite silence of awareness before I was aware, but I can only see that here in my minds eye because of this awareness being aware---I can imagine dinasours and cave men and ancient Egypt and yes, i have 'proof' they existed thousands of years ago, they left behind bones and writing on the walls, and giant pyrimids and Aztec ruins ---I have seen them---but my 'proof' is still and always will be here in within my awareness, I visit them, but no matter where I go this awareness is Here and Now always being aware---I am not ever out side my awareness---nothing is out side my awareness--the pyrimids, no matter how impossible they say they were to build, the saying and seeing of them are all within my awareness, right here and now, always.

You can say to me that none of this makes any sense, and that I am wrong; you deffinately do exist, but I can only hear you say that, or read your words because it is within my awareness.

So, my point is this, at least for me, my awareness includes all kinds of things within it, it is not empty or pure or blank and dead, or without its images within it, I have never been not aware and my awareness has never been pure emptiness ---oh, you can tell me that it is, but 'you' are within my awareness---and I can believe you if I like, but my beiving or not is Here and Now because I am this Awareness---nothing else. I can imagine it, but I am still imagining it Here as this awareness, awareness is aware. It is doing a fine job of it, it never fails or ceases to be aware, despite what images may be within it, it never fails to be aware. It is all that is as far as I know, and I am the only one 'knowing' or 'not knowing' as both are arbitray to the very Fact that I am aware.

Oh yes, I can order something off the internet and a few days later the guy pulls up in a big brown truck, his brown suit saying UPS and he hands me my stuff, and Holy Baloney, all within Awareness---Profound, remarkable, Awareness can make all this 'appear' to be within the only awareness I know, mine.

Wonder what else I can do with this Awareness I am.

Now, I got to go order a rubber gasket thingy for my blender---yumm for smoothies

Its magic, it is absolute, incredible, mysterious magic---and I am in love with this Sweet Mystery, In love.
Mistral

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by mistral » Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:58 pm

In case my point got missed--- If this is True for Me, then It is True for 'you' therefore we see that there is no 'owner' of awareness, there is Only Awareness being all that is within Itself Awareness--- One Awareness 'I am" and it never leaves or forsakes me---We can see that there is only One Awareness and it does not belong to separate identities, it does not belong to 'bodies' or 'names' or time---it becomes very obvious when for me when I begin with the beginning fact--start with Awareness, and stay there.

Mistral

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by Sighclone » Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:24 pm

The moment any form, thought or identity departs from Self, the entire dualistic universe is created. When enigma or Andy or Daniel or mistral write the word “me” or “you” in a sentence, we create the entire relativistic universe. And minds, minds conditioned by reading the English language read those and other words. And the medium for minds to work in is thought. No thought, no mind.

The words “me” and “you” are really important words. They imply the “I-thought.” That is the primal thought-form, at least according to Ramana and many others. If that is not dissolved, if that is not absent, then there is ego and mind.
If you were mind then of course it would be important, but you are not and so it is irrelevant. Could it be that 'something' is at rest all the time regardless of whether or not mind is at rest? What if you didn't have to do anything at all to mind, but just notice that you are already resting in, and as, Awareness? Would anything need to change?
It’s the “just notice that you are already resting in” part that is the stumbling block, enigma. Just saying “you are not” is a classical neo-Advaitist assertion. Although it is true, for most people it is only a concept. The challenge is transcending concepts. That’s where all the sadhanas (spiritutal practices) come in. The practices help the mind to release itself. What remains is Pure Awareness. For most, it seems, that moment (and it might be an hour) ends. And mind and ego and the world of maya returns with the first thought. My first experience of Pure Awareness was in 1973. It lasted about 30 seconds. Then the first thought re-emerged. It was my name.

I spent the next 35 years getting “back” there. Although Pure Awareness is home, I wander frequently… :)

Namaste, Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by enigma » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:19 am

It happened effortlessly and what followed was 35 years of effort. Did the effort work or did it take you 35 years to stop the effort? :wink:

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by Sighclone » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:55 pm

It happened effortlessly and what followed was 35 years of effort. Did the effort work or did it take you 35 years to stop the effort?
Enigma - you make me laugh, big belly laughs! Thanks for joining!

The first glimpse, in my opinion, would never have happened without TM. I am among the long list of those who find fault with much of what Maharishi did in the last 30 years of his life. But his teacher was guru Dev, who was the Shankarcharya of Jyotr Math, in the lineage of Shankara, a primary teacher of Advaita. Repetition of a mantra is part of japa, a traditional practice.

But Maharishi had already set in place a set of seven levels of consciousness for us to contemplate. The fourth was "Transcendental Consciousness." We were taught that we could expect that experience after a few months of dedicated meditation. And lo-and-behold, that happened to me. And that place became familiar during future meditation sessions. I think, however, if I had been given a different, simpler "expectation" - such as..."meditation will introduce you to a level of awareness which does not include thought at all" and that is who you are, that my path might have been different. Plus, it would have been nice to learn about the value of the present moment. Maharishi's elaborate system of levels of consciousness was, for me, a 35-year misdirection.

I did not consider myself a seeker for enlightenment, just a seeker of truth. The seeking identity I had was "me, Andy." I could list for you the "tags" of that identity. They remain as my persona or personality. That person knew himself to be lost and seeking -- as recently as three years ago, I had a hypnosis-induced "past-life-regression." I was searching and seeking like crazy. But it was not for enlightenment. I had that bracketed away as "something you get after 20 years at a Rinzai Zen monastery."

So the "effort" of meditation and seeking had value only insofar as it allowed me to get past the goofy title "The Power of NOW" in Eckhart's first book. The rest just happened, mainly by surrender.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by mistral » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:49 pm

Sighclone wrote:The words “me” and “you” are really important words. They imply the “I-thought.” That is the primal thought-form, at least according to Ramana and many others. If that is not dissolved, if that is not absent, then there is ego and mind.
Well, obviously I love the words "you" and "me'-- My Effortless Awareness has not restricted Itself to the boundries of only certain words. My Effortless Awareness is always about 'you' and 'me' and no other One do I see.

I have never meditated---I have done a lot of thinking and pondering and questioning "who am I"---Me too, I searched for The Truth, not for 'something called enlightenment'. Me too, same---One day It found Me.

I would hope that someday someone could write a statement of Truth that even the rankest materialist who knows nothing about Ramana or 'enlightenment' or 'non-duality' will be unable to misinterpret. It is possible,so--- why not you and me?

Just as you, it took me many years to find This Effortlessness to Be Me---Oh, but Now I Love So Much Being Me--In this Efforless Joy all I can say, like you, This Truth found Me. Yes, I wonder into the tangeled forest sometimes still, but this Inner Grace that found Me and Is So Very Real---It leads me aright when I go wrong, quickly, easily It Is Here with Me Always Now.

And when This Grace found Me, Joy of Joy! I was given the fearlessness to Be Me and fearlessly to speak and write in My Own Voice. Now, This Love seems to nudge me all the time to find the words that touch the Heart--- and to write in praise of this astounding Beauty That is Real and Is the LIfe and Light of Us and That is With Everyone of Us.

This Effortless Truth is Not Afraid to speak-write-share in my own way, using words like "me" and "you"--- The LIght of Truth is Unresticted, Unbound Freedom ---and the recognition of This Living Truth came to me personally, just as yours came to you, Enigmas to him and Daniel and eveyrone else---It is Always a personal experience; Here as Me Seeing What Is Mine, Seeing What I Am, Seeing and Being Me, The One I am and the only Real One I ever was or ever will be. No more struggle to be what I Am. A Return, A Repent, A Re Born, A Re-cognition that there is NO Other Me (an errant 'bad' me that I must dissolve) The recognition must be a one to one Light (though it includes All That I am, all that you are ---yet still It is so very intimate.

It took me many years to be Effortlessly Unafraid of saying it My Way, using words that may 'click' with some, and not concerned when they do not click with others.

Mistral

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by Sighclone » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:56 pm

It's all a language issue, Mistral. In attic Greek, it was possible to communicate without personal pronouns, I hear. But it's all good. We retain personalities, we have language. In a way, it's a fun challenge to transcend the dualistic implications of language.

And using "me" and "you" is just a part of the dilemma...how about "yesterday"... :)

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by mistral » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:41 pm

Ok, so each of us trys to find the words that seem the 'best' to make sense of Something that is not contained in words---

Then why say that certain words come from "the old bad 'ego' that must be dissovled' and if we use the word "Self" instead of 'me" and "you" than 'we are being egoless' when we write-- It sounds like that was what you were saying--- If it were that simple 'to do' then everyone one would eliminate the word "me" and "you" from his vocabulary, and Voila, there you go ---


As we all know, Grace has nothing to do with what words we use--- as we all know--- There is That Marvelous Something that we can feel and sense and even "see" or some how 'touch' the Truth when someone writes It clearly from ones own honest experience and glimmers and glimpses of The Unbound Childlike Freedom We Are. We know it is not in their words at all, really---it is somehow like a song, you hear a whole symphony of melody in your heart of Hearts--- When they string those words in ways that are 'just right' and a distant familiar call is heard in our Heart. Like "I am Home, I am Home again!" what more lovely words than those?

Anyway, I am not so sure anymore what you were saying---but isn't that what you were saying? 'we should use certain words' only?

There have been people here, come and gone, who know how to spew all the 'right words' ---and All of us can tell immediately that though the words 'seem right' there is arrogance and dishonesty, anger and a very vicious ego behind them. It feels bad---even if the words 'sound right'---The words mean nothing when we know there is something dishonest 'behind' the words---

We know that the Living Truth does not 'belong' to any group or any words at all, all groups and words are within This Awareness Being the Totality of all 'things'. I have read some wonderful Truth-Full messages that are not even about 'non-duality' and they are Clearly The Same Bright and Genuine and Enlightening Truth--- Write to me about puppys and you have me in Heaven----Write to me about being a child again, scampering the hills searching for bright sparkly stones glittering in the sunshine, little dirty bare feet, and a boquet of wildflowers for Mom. and how about those words "Daddy, Daddy"--- 'just words' but such sweet words---Write to me of dusty roads, and stopping to put our feet into the crystal clear icy water that ambles down from those snow peaked mountains majestic in the distance, here on the banks of this little rivlet, trees abound in green on this blue sky gentle summer day. and Oh, yes, words are just words, but you can write to me of so many things that would Bring The Joy to My Heart, the tender Joy.

and That is what I would like to do.

Or as my friend put it so perfectly "Words that can stir the Heart and overhtrow the intellect, leaving the child-we-are in the Heavenly Father's arms."

Someday I will write from the duality side of stuff and get to the same Heart of it---I know I can, I know it can done, because The Truth is Both equally Being All It Is.

Mistral

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by Sighclone » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:46 am

Dear Mistral -

You say:
Anyway, I am not so sure anymore what you were saying---but isn't that what you were saying? 'we should use certain words' only?
Not at all true. All I was trying to say is that when we use any words we activate all of duality, because that is what language is rooted in. Then the challenge is for Source to write through that dualistic medium. W. Samuel is a wonderful channel for that, as you know. And the vehicle of language contains all words. Who knows the perfect formula for achieving the perfect word-pointer for everyone? Not me. Eckhart is often successful, but not always...(lots of people struggle with his concept of "pain-body" for example. He got a bad review in teh New York Times for 'Power of Now.') Every roll is not a strike.

My point about "me" and "you" was that they represent the "I-thought" in normal usage. In modern unconscious society we make broad assumptions about "who we are." Those words trigger egoic identites when we use them.

Gary Weber does not capitalize "i" in his emails. He tries to write without the personal pronoun at all. I don't bother.

Use whatever word seems right.


Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by enigma » Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:10 am

Gary Weber does not capitalize "i" in his emails. He tries to write without the personal pronoun at all. I don't bother.
Somehow it seems disingenuous (to ME) to use language, and also deny it at the same time.

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Re: Know Who You Are

Post by Sighclone » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:12 am

enigma...personally, I tend to agree. But I also think that even enlightened folk retain a personality, a style. I mean compare Leonard Jacobsen with Ramana Maharshi or Eckhart Tolle. Or compare Barry Long with Byron Katie. I look for sincerity and uniqueness. You have that. So does William Samuels.

Mistral worries about residual ego. Not me.

If I can find a pointer in an angry Nisardagadatta or Balsekar, or even Osho, I'm happy. Then it's "my" pointer -- it resonates with this little droplet in the ocean. If it offends Mistral or you, that's OK too.

For me, in this flurry of nondualist writer/teachers, Eckhart is supreme, followed ever so closely by Ramana, Adya and Nisargadatta. Others have different orders of favorites. Some prefer Rumi. I have yet to hear someone who prefers Donald Trump. But there's always hope... :)

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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