affective gateways to the now

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enigma
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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by enigma » Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:18 pm

joe wrote:The effort I'm describing is simply this:

I enjoy being in my mind and I find it comfortable.
Who is enjoying that? There isn't a 'you' outside of mind to enjoy that, and so it must be mind that is enjoying mind.

To stand outside of it doesn't feel natural, though it's the natural state of being. So the effort comes in tearing myself away from mental noise.
Who is it that is tearing itself away from the mind? There isn't a 'you' outside of mind to do any tearing, and so it must be mind that wants to tear itself away from itself.


I want to enter a state where I can allow the thoughts to flow freely while at the same time watching them. Can that be done? If not, I have to fight the distraction with attention. That's the ego working though.
Yes, it is. Mind/ego is enjoying it's thoughts, and it is wanting to stop it's thoughts, and it is in conflict over this utterly insoluble dilemma. Again, does this seem the tiniest bit insane?

enigma
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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by enigma » Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:30 pm

bluephoenixx wrote:karmarider wrote:
Yes, you can be the effortless natural noticing.

The mind is a fast habit machine and it enjoys running through its grooves and mental movies. So yes, it can take some effort to get "above" that. The practice I've found useful is observing thought. Watch the comings and goings of thoughts, without interacting, and soon the gaps widen.
Hello karmarider. I'm a beginner here and your last post really spoke to me. I was wondering if you had any pointers on observing your thoughts. Whenever I try to observe my thoughts I seem to get caught up in them instead - old habits, etc. Maybe I am focusing too much on the accomplishment.
You already answered your own question. You enjoy the thoughts, and so you follow them. Why does it need to be more complex than that? When you want to observe them more than you want to follow them, then you will observe more than follow, or perhaps you will wage a war within yourself as you try to figure out how to do both at the same time, which will also keep you entertained for 35 years or so.

When you notice deeply that your thoughts are doing much more than entertaining you, that they are imprisoning you, causing you to suffer, robbing you of your natural Joy and Peace, keeping you asleep and dead to a vibrantly alive world, then you will not want to be entertained by your dull, banal, lifeless thoughts. You must, however, notice this, and to notice you must look, and you must be willing to see. There is nothing for you to do.

joe
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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by joe » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:14 pm

Telling me that it is my mind enjoying mental chatter, and asking who is doing the enjoying, thinking, etc. is no help but simply statements. What I need are techniques whereby I can get outside of the chatter through awareness only. How is that done?

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Marcel Franke
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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by Marcel Franke » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:21 pm

Hallo Joe,

I dont want to be mean,
sorry, but it is not done,
for you are already out of the chatter.
Do you see that ?

Greetings from Mars.
---ooOoo---

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Marcel Franke
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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by Marcel Franke » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:14 pm

Uhm, sorry, come to think of it, there actually -is- a little technique....

Look at the nail of your thumb.
Joe, can you see the nail of your thumb ?
---ooOoo---

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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by joe » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:29 pm

Marcel Franke wrote:Uhm, sorry, come to think of it, there actually -is- a little technique....

Look at the nail of your thumb.
Joe, can you see the nail of your thumb ?

now those comments are definitely useless!

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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by karmarider » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:49 pm

bluephoenixx wrote:...I was wondering if you had any pointers on observing your thoughts. Whenever I try to observe my thoughts I seem to get caught up in them instead - old habits, etc. Maybe I am focusing too much on the accomplishment....
My experience has been that 'observing thoughts' and 'letting go' has led to effortless noticing.

-Observe thoughts as a witness and the gaps between thoughts will widen. Don't judge, interact, stop, start or analyze thoughts. Simply watch.
-Learn to release. Check out my website (category healing or releasing), the Sedona Method, EFT, and Byron Katie. I'm sure there are other methods. You'll find that letting go is not something we do; it is something we stop doing, when we are ready to stop holding on.

-After some practice, the effort goes away. Practice goes away.
-It will help you if you don't allow the mind to fixate on particular ideas or methods. "Cease to cherish opinion." From what I have seen, people tend to get trapped in attachment to particular practices or beliefs or spirituality or an external God or other theories of existence or Eckhart Tolle. Sometimes people get attached to what they think is the opposite of resistance. This is when people want to give up music or sex or living or love.
-When thoughts seem highly compelling, put attention in the body. Observe breath. Or observe the sensations in the body. Or observe perceptions. Meet your perceptions half-way.
-There is other stuff which has been helpful to others but not to me, but I see the value in it. Meditation, spirituality, inquiry...

People point out the fallacy of practice and you are finding this frustrating. When people say it's not about practice and it's not about effort, they are completely right and they are being helpful. What they are pointing out is that practice and effort can only make sense in the realm of the mind. Practice and effort are more thoughts and beliefs and doing. This is true. Yet for most of us, practice is what gets us started.

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Webwanderer
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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by Webwanderer » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:42 pm

joe wrote:Telling me that it is my mind enjoying mental chatter, and asking who is doing the enjoying, thinking, etc. is no help but simply statements. What I need are techniques whereby I can get outside of the chatter through awareness only. How is that done?
Joe take a look at the Great Freedom web site. Start by reading FAQ section to get a good sense of the teachings, and then explore the site for the wealth of useful material built around the core principle. This is the simplest and most effective "technic" I have found. Many of us on this forum have begun to take advantage of this resource and are employing the simple "short moments, repeated many times" approach.

http://www.greatfreedom.org/faq.html

WW

enigma
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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by enigma » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:07 pm

joe wrote:Telling me that it is my mind enjoying mental chatter, and asking who is doing the enjoying, thinking, etc. is no help but simply statements. What I need are techniques whereby I can get outside of the chatter through awareness only. How is that done?
IT IS NEVER DONE. No mind, in the history of humanity, has ever surrendered, accepted, let go of anything. That's the point. Say that to a mind once and it will ask "but how do i do that?" Say it twice and he'll accuse you of preaching neo-advaita. Say it a third time and he'll call you a nihilist. Say it fourth time and he'll likely hit you with something dense.

It's not all there is to the story, but before the story can be appreciated, the characters have to be developed.

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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by joe » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:34 pm

Thanks Webwanderer! Now THAT'S information I can use! Will check it out. I'm excited to view the videos offered. Hopefully they will have practical advice.
Being present does take effort, and detaching from the mind is a skill developed over time. Everyone needs practical exercises to achieve a state of frequent presence.

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Mason
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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by Mason » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:58 pm

joe wrote:Telling me that it is my mind enjoying mental chatter, and asking who is doing the enjoying, thinking, etc. is no help but simply statements. What I need are techniques whereby I can get outside of the chatter through awareness only. How is that done?
I'm going to go squarely against the grain and say that stopping thought can be done through technique, but as everyone else is pointing out realizing the self can not be done with a technique. But since you are not asking about how to realize the self I won't answer on that level. As per stopping mental chatter, here's the deal...

You have to view your mind as just another sense organ, essentually no different than your eyes, ears, nose, etc, and you need to view thought as just being the object of that sense organ. Nothing more. If you want to stop the chatter via technique look at it in terms of every sense door needing three "things" to function: 1) the sense organ itself, 2) an object to perceive, and 3) consciousness. If any one of those three elements is removed from the equasion there is no posibility of perception, and the sense door will be temporarily unable to fulfill it's natural function.

For example, there are three ways to not see an apple: if you have your eyes closed you can not visually perceive an apple right in front of you, this is because the sense organ is absent. If you put the apple behind your back you can not perceive it even if your eyes are open, this is because the object is absent. And finally, if you are in a state of deep dreamless sleep, even if your eyes were propped open and the apple was right in front of you, you can not perceive it; this is because consciousness is absent.

Since there is no possiblity of closing your mind in the same way that you close your eyes, and since the object of thought can't be removed like placing an apple behind your back; when it comes to mental chatter the only thing you have to work with is removing consciousness from the equasion. This is not easy, but it is actually possible.

So here's the "how" part:

The best way that I can describe it is like this: every sense organ has a corresponding byproduct when it is shut down. For example: if you shut down your eyes there is darkness, if you plug your nose there is odorlessness, etc. The hint is that the resulting byproduct of shuting down the mind is stillness. Look for that. Look for ways to develop that; stillness is the only benchmark that I know of which can tell you if you are removing consciousness from the mind sense door or not.

Think of it in terms of a yogic attainment similar to the medical condition known as hysterical blindness. Hysterical blindness being where the eye organ is functioning properly and objects are present, but due to trauma consciousness is withdrawn.

..

Again though, I really do see where everyone else is coming from in their responses. It would be as if you posted a question saying "I don't want to hear sounds any longer, how do I accomplish that with a technique?" So yeah, please realize that people here aren't trying to get in your way, they are just asking what exactly is that you think you'll accomplish from such a thing?

If you think that you are going to realize the self they're telling you up front that it can't be done via a technique, and they're right. But I'll add that a yogic attainment of no mental chatter is possible if that's what you really want.
Last edited by Mason on Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:04 am

Joe wrote:Thanks Webwanderer! Now THAT'S information I can use! Will check it out. I'm excited to view the videos offered. Hopefully they will have practical advice.
Glad you see its potential Joe. I suggest the audio books and the entire Great Freedom Teaching section, as it's a bit more focused than the open sessions. It's mostly all useful though. I like the audios through a headset in a deeply relaxed state - just letting the teachings soak in unhindered by interpretive mind work. Let us know how it goes.

WW

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Marcel Franke
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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by Marcel Franke » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:10 am

> now those comments are definitely useless!

: - )

They are simple.
Because it is simple.
It is unbelievable simple.
---ooOoo---

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Mason
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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by Mason » Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:17 am

Marcel Franke wrote: They are simple.
Because it is simple.
It is unbelievable simple.
I agree, it's too bad that the Genjo Koan didn't feature "who sees this thumb nail?" instead of "who hears this sound?" -Your version is much catchier!

enigma
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Re: affective gateways to the now

Post by enigma » Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:27 am

Just to clarify, there's nothing wrong with a little, (or a lot of) insanity practice. We can discipline ourselves and have all sorts of fun experiences of mind states. It's a lot like going to the zoo or bungee jumping or whatever else you do for fun, but as mentioned it has nothing to do with Truth realization, and in the end, only Truth will set you free; only Truth is True.

If there is the strong desire to not be burdened by non-stop thoughts, of course that burden will be dropped, and mind will become interested in a technique that it will accept as the cause of that dropping because it doesn't want to accept that it is the cause of the hanging on. To simply realize that you don't want to do it anymore, and stop doing it, is the same as admitting you caused it and kept causing for years or decades, like a bloody fool. Mind doesn't get to take credit for anything, just the blame. However, if you find a technique and use it for a while before letting go, then you can pretend that the mind is something other than you, and so you didn't cause the problem, but instead you practiced and practiced and finally accomplished the letting go, which makes you the hero instead of the villain, all the while making certain that nothing deadly to ego is ever actually recognized. It also reinforces the notion of cause/effect, free will, control and 'ME', all of which are highly valued delusions.

We talk about surrender and humility. How bout this: 'Of myself, I can do nothing'. 'I am powerless to control my addiction'. 'Not my will, but God's will'. True humility is the realization that there isn't even anybody here to be humble. Realizing that you're doing it to yourself because you want to, and because you're afraid of what might happen if you stop, paints you into a corner, perhaps a lonely and stark corner. No 'buts', no excuses, nowhere else to go, nobody to help you, no way out, no escape, no new technique, the path has ended. You have failed..... This IS Grace.

Moderator note - changed "noting deadly" to "nothing deadly" - hoping it was a typo -- please correct if not, enigma.

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