Sighclone wrote:Wow - this poor thread has been all over the place....oh well.
For the record, I sent enigma's predetermination comments to Gary Weber, spiritual teacher and new friend. He is the guy who presented this topic at the Science and Nonduality Conference in San Rafael last month, and wrote a fine book "Happiness Beyond Thought".
Thanks, Andy. Very interesting.
Here is what he said:
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Really excellent response with some wonderfully creative, intelligent and open approaches. Some great "nowbe" work, if i could be so bold as to posit what the "nowbes" are.
Agree with him, generally, up to the point that he states "and since it is not pre-planning anything" and "Nothing in the universe follows any laws" which seem a "bridge too far".
It is wildly presumptuous for our limited brain/minds, even for someone as bright as your "wiser new member", to posit that the Universe has nothing pre-planned.
As an argument for the contrary, your picking up my book and writing to me, has led to all sorts of results that certainly look like "pre-planning" and are far from what would happen in random, or only in the "Now". He even says as much in his "The non-randomness of what is happening implies there is an intelligence at work right now".
Why is he so certain that the Universe has no "intent" or is incapable of moving in directions that support its ultimate discovery of itself in all its guises over several "nows"? Why does he believe the Universe can only learn in this femtosecond and can carry no learning forward to guide its next direction or movement? That seems a terrible waste for the poor Universe.
The prerequisite for pre-planing is a pondering intelligence outside of time/space, which cannot be. Pondering takes time, and that which is the source of time is not, itself, subject to time, just as that which is the source of thinking things does not, itself, think. If this alleged intelligence were operating within the illusion of time/space, it would necessarily be subject to the inherent limitations of this realm, and in fact it is, which is why the universe operates on the basis of perception, moment to moment, and not according to some plan drawn out on a blackboard somewhere in no-time/no-space.
IOW, God is not thinking. What we mean by God is intelligence; the foundation of thought; itself still, boundless, empty. The thoughts that arise in your mind are 'God's' thoughts. The exact point where a thought arises in awareness and seems to appear out of nothingness is the threshold between the nonlinear and the linear, the unfolding of intelligence into form in it's own framework of time/space. This is the realm of thoughts, ideas, feelings, desire, fear, beauty, harmony, discord, ugliness, and the universe is a reflection of all of it, formed not entirely from the delusions of mankind, but as a wholistic expression of a singular Intelligence, as it unfolds into an infinite and ever changing variety of form.
To turn the universe as a Whole into a thinking, planning, desiring entity is to split that Wholeness and create God in the image of man. I remember the moment when I first noticed that the universe is not guided from 'outside', because there is no outside, and it is being unconsciously driven from within the delusion of separation and fear. I remember saying out loud "Oh, my God! Nobody is running the show!" It could be said that God has fallen into his own dream, and from within the dream, he seeks escape, and this longing to be free leads him back to himself. And so there is calamity, destruction, misery and suffering etched deeply into the fabric of life as it seeks it's own 'salvation', and there is also wonder, beauty, compassion, harmony and love as the very essence of life, much of it eclipsed by our delusional fear.
It all collapses into here and now, and God is the One playing this game. Not a game in which the rules were set ahead of time, but one in which god is a cheating rascal who ultimately has all the cards stacked in his favor because there is nothing other than god. To put it plainly, you are God creating your own dream from within the dream, and this is very messy business as you can plainly see.
So why does the evolution of humanity seem to be following an intent? Because it is. Self is seeking the Truth of Self because the lies only work for a while. How can that movement end until the Truth is seen, and how can the Truth be perpetually avoided when nothing else can end the dream? All of life moves spontaneously in this way because it can't do otherwise. The 'intent' is right here in your own mind and you would assign it to some master intender. Do you wish for Peace and Freedom? THERE is the intent that drives the universe. There is no other, but there is no randomness is this intent.
As for gravity, do you wish for it to cease holding you to the ground? I would venture to say few do, and so it remains. During the cold war, did you wish to see the planet destroyed by nuclear holocaust? Few did, and so it did not happen. The majesty of Mt Everest is Your majesty. The ferocity of the mountain lion is Your ferocity. The beauty of an Asian Lilly is Your beauty. The wonder of a starry, starry night is Your wonder. This is how you recognize these things. Everything is in constant motion so that you can perceive it, since that which is still becomes invisible to you. Would you have a day that is twice as long, or half as long? I doubt it because you seem to have decided 24 hours is about right. How many months does it take before 'summerness' begins to fade from your awareness and you need for it to move again to 'winterness'? About six months? Did you think this was a coincidence?
Okay, maybe all this is sounding a bit crazy, but all I can suggest is that if you will allow it, the entire universe will collapse at your feet, and show you where god has always been standing.
i am certain that "we" have no free will or choice; however, it does at least appear, from our primitive viewpoint, that the Universe may have both. From a pragmatic, empirical and philosophical, standpoint, that is all that matters for "me". Whatever properties and capabilities the infinite One intelligence has, i am comfortable with surrendering to the impossibility of my every fully knowing what those might be.
i also don't buy the "all the so called laws are also formed in this moment". "Laws" have always carried too much certainty for me as a concept, in that i agree with him. They are, however, within the short span of human history, consistent as far as we can determine; it is unlikely that gravity will change tonight, although it is philosophically possible.
Gravity is however useful as a convention that has been highly consistent; it seems rather unlikely that the Universe has to come up with it every moment anew, over and over again, now after now after now, for all eternity as well as the speed of light, mass's relation to energy, action at a distance, etc. The Universe must have better things to do with its time (only apparent of course), like enjoying and learning from its magnificent Dance with Itself.
It is some "good stuff", though, some "good stuff".
Hope this is useful.
peace and stillness
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Gary requested that any further comments directed to him be sent to his website info request email which is here: firstname.lastname@example.org
I'm still sorting out my impresion of determinism -- more later...but no more nose-picking!!