Do people really suffer?

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6380
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Do people really suffer?

Post by Sighclone » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:22 am

Andrew -

It would be an interesting article: "Most favored M-B personality types for Awakening" or "First I
was an ENFJ and then I got enlightened and now I'm an INFP."

Speaking of happy people who are not awake, I'm always curious about their belief systems. Some are perfectly content as "average Christian people." And can be immensely loving. Do we have to insist that Mother Teresa was enlighened to accept her as a wonderful person? Or Albert Schweitzer? Or even Stephen Hawking?

I think most people who are fascinated with nonduality are driven by a spiritual seeking, or at least a belief that they can "understand" why I have a body, why there is life, what is the meaning of it all, and aren't content with the conventional explanations and leaps of faith. That was certainly me at an early age and continuing through lots of TM and piles of reading material and conversations, and mediums and clairvoyants and past-life regressions. "What is Going On Here???" It was a very serious big question for me. All that went away a couple of years ago. My boring little story is here in my earlier posts. Kiki was very helpful in explaining what was happening.

I wish you well on your search/no search. I try to stay current with the lastest nondual writers, at least those in the mainstream, and web stuff also like kiloby.com and about 50 "favorites" in my browser.

Having or not having a happy life is a tiny part of the picture. The personality remains fully functional and will have a bunch of its old hangups, too. However, they get saturated with Pure Awareness and can be unraveled much more smoothly. The two best recent therapist books are edited by John Prendergast: "The Sacred Mirror" and "Listening from the Heart of Silence." Awakening is one thing, full embodiment of that event, or as Adya says "love returning for itself," is a process which might take the rest of your life...mine, too.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

idontgetit
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:34 pm

Re: Do people really suffer?

Post by idontgetit » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:53 am

Hi Sighclone,

It is an interesting topic. I have an INFJ (so rare!) friend who has read PoN and claims to "live in the now". I would think the iNtuitives would be the best candidates for awakening. I'm actually ISFJ.

What is even more interesting to me is if the personality changes after awakening. MBTI theorists would say that personality can never be changed, in that it is hardwired into our brain. I'm not talking about subjective personality, or ego, but more about things like Introversion vs Extroversion, Intuitive vs Sensing. An Extrovert before awakening will still be an Extrovert after awakening. For example, Eckhart is likely an INFJ, and also was before awakening, and Alan Watts or Barry Long are likely ENTP (Adya maybe ENFJ or ENFP). You can clearly see the "extrovert vs introvert" difference when comparing Adya and Eckhart.

What I think happens is that after awakening, while personality stays, it becomes less of a dictating force in how we see the world. We still have preferences i.e. a Thinking preference over Feeling preference, or Extroversion over Introversion, but this is just a factor in awareness.

As for being 'happy', I believe that the main ingredient is not having inner conflict. Non-dualists have no inner conflict because they see every moment as perfect. Stephen Hawking, being a theoretical physicist, probably holds similar beliefs to non-dualists. Conflict I think is all in the mind, and those who are less attached to mind, experience less conflict, and are happier. For example, I'm sure that my free-spirited friend has gone months without thinking about anything! he has very little conflict, and is quite happy. Is he enlightened? No. Sure stuff could happen to him that would render him horribly depressed (i.e. becoming disfigured, losing all of his limbs, becoming terminally ill). Obviously this is extreme...

People can be happy without being enlightened - the more happiness isn't dependent on circumstance, and the lower the inner conflict, the happier they are. But to be be enlightened is to realize that happiness is not dependent on any circumstance AT ALL.

Personally, I am not (or was not) really that interest in "the meaning of it all", "why there is life" - probably my ISFJ coming through. However, the obsessive nature of my mind won't seem to let this stuff go, which is ironic...my mind wants to be free from itself and to awaken, but is at the very same time fearful and just wants to go back to being "average". Is this insanity? :P

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6380
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Do people really suffer?

Post by Sighclone » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:12 am

Andrew -

Always nice to have a new, clear thinking member -- welcome! Clear thinking is not a "bad" thing, by the way...
my mind wants to be free from itself and to awaken, but is at the very same time fearful and just wants to go back to being "average". Is this insanity?
To be able to "stand back enough" to speak about what "your mind" wants to do rather than what "you" want to do is something nondualists see favorably. But how far separated from your mind are you really? Only you can answer that.

If you feel very distinct from your mind, then you have made progress (oops, we don't talk about the path). Moreover, if you sense "your mind" rebelling and constricting back to "average," then you are experiencing something many have -- Adya calls it "dislocation"...others are less gentle. Something is being moved aside, and what is replacing it is pretty vague, undefined, nonlocal and transpersonal.

I remember that feeling and a big scare around it. But for me, the infinitely broader consciousness of pure Awareness was at once compelling and comforting. Your final home has no walls. The sense of "power" comes from the "suchness" of the experience...the fullness and the love.

What has been the end of suffering for me, is the absence of any more "big questions." And the answer is not in the form of concepts, but rather, experience...daily, hourly, moment-by-moment experience. But hey, I can still fall out of what Peter Fenner calls "unconditioned awareness." And also, "get it back." That's just where I am. And mostly, when I get all wrapped up in thoughts and concepts, it's about something specific, work-related, etc... But I just let it all go, "surrender" is a common pointer, and there "it" is again. It was never "gone;" my specific attention was just directed at something in the phenomenal world. As time has gone on, even those "busy monkey-mind moments" have been more saturated with Presence, however. My growth or embodiment has been very granular!!

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

soren008
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:06 pm

Re: Do people really suffer?

Post by soren008 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:45 pm

.
Last edited by soren008 on Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
RCharles
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:23 am
Location: Northern California -- Sierra Nevada Mountains

Re: Do people really suffer?

Post by RCharles » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:33 pm

Andy, thanks for this:
"But I just let it all go, "surrender" is a common pointer, and there "it" is again. It was never "gone;" my specific attention was just directed at something in the phenomenal world. As time has gone on, even those "busy monkey-mind moments" have been more saturated with Presence..."

Perfect!

RC
"They are all...perfect..." --Ken Watanabe, dying scene in the movie The Last Samurai

tylernator
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:34 am

Re: Do people really suffer?

Post by tylernator » Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:17 am

Eckhart talks about "Awaking to your lifes purpose" About his teacher that he thought was always happy and loving life committed suicide. Alot of people that might look and seem happy, deep down there not.
He also says that most of us many times has had glimpses of "The NOW" and not realizing it. This is just coming to a realization of what we truly are. Sure some people are happy, but wouldnt it be awesome if they realized that they dont need there thoughts to remain happy?
Eckhart isnt trying to give us more knowledge, but just to realize that space between thoughts, are true nature. I can be outside my house and look at a tree now and feel a oneness with it, just letting it be, feeling the joy inside... Am i truley more happier than your friend? No, i just found where TRUE happiness comes from..Excuse me someone just broke into my car

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6380
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Do people really suffer?

Post by Sighclone » Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:47 am

No, i just found where TRUE happiness comes from..Excuse me someone just broke into my car
Very clear and very funny, too...thanks tn

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

olive
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:30 am

Re: Do people really suffer?

Post by olive » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:04 am

Andy,

I relate to what you said about the "absence of any more 'big questions.' " and "Having or not having a happy life is a tiny part of the picture." Among the most dramatic happenings after I started studying nonduality are the fading away of my "big questions" and obsessions with pleasures.
Realization must be amidst all the turmoils of life. ~Ramana Maharshi

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6380
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Do people really suffer?

Post by Sighclone » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:43 am

olive - welcome again. It's a pleasure to see more advanced, clearer people joining, something I've noticed in the last year. Even the "newbies" (weren't we all that once?) show evidence of hard work at climbing free from the delusions of me. Suchness stabilizes and Consciousness returns for itself, or so phrases Adya.

Say - you might enjoy Scott Kiloby's fine site, kiloby.com.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

User avatar
AnonyMouse
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:47 pm
Location: Denmark

Re: Do people really suffer?

Post by AnonyMouse » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:47 am

What is ISFJ, INFJ, MBTI, ENTP, ENFJ, ENFP.. Human species variation codes? :wink:
Eggs uses hens to become more eggs

User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6380
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: Do people really suffer?

Post by Sighclone » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:16 pm

These are Myers-Briggs Personality types -- see here: http://www.myersbriggs.org/

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

Post Reply