Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

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gen6
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Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by gen6 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:28 am

If we have a partner(girlfriend,boyfriend, wife, husband) this means that we depend on something external in order to feel better. It means that we don't entirely find the happiness in ourselves, that we still need this last drop of something external to be complete, i.e. another human being?

Can we be entirely self-sufficient so that we don't need anyone/anything to make us feel better? If yes, why does Eckhart has a partner?
If you think we can't be entirely self-sufficient, then the happiness is not only in US and we shouldn't find it only in ourselves, happiness is coming from the external environemnt as well? Do we need the external environment to be happy?
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by eputkonen » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:17 pm

gen6 wrote:If we have a partner(girlfriend,boyfriend, wife, husband) this means that we depend on something external in order to feel better. It means that we don't entirely find the happiness in ourselves, that we still need this last drop of something external to be complete, i.e. another human being?
Incorrect. To have a partner of some kind does not mean we depend on something external to feel better. I am perfectly happy by myself...because (using your words: happiness is in ourselves. My wife does not complete me or make me feel better than if I was alone.
Can we be entirely self-sufficient so that we don't need anyone/anything to make us feel better? If yes, why does Eckhart has a partner?
Because your assumption is wrong. Being self-suffient does not mean you will be without a partner...it does not mean you repel and push such things away because you don't need them.
Do we need the external environment to be happy?
No.
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by gen6 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:42 pm

Hi Eric :)
My wife does not complete me or make me feel better than if I was alone.
If she doesn't make you feel better than what are the reasons that you are with her? If I didn't have to eat to survive or if it didn't bring me any pleasure, why would I do it? Of course i wouldn't. Man is pursuing his own good through entire lifetime. We live to feel good. Nobody voluntarily will do something that doesn't bring pleasure or doesn't help him somehow etc. Why do we try to eliminate our EGO and be more self-aware? Because it brings pleasure and it feels good. So if you feel absolutely neutral with your wife, why are you with her? Isn't it a waste of time? Or because of reproduction purposes may be? I don't think so...
You can still feel completed, she doesn't have to complete you, however you still need her. If she doesn't make you feel better and if it's absolutely the same for you if you were alone, then tell me, why are you with her? Just because of that, like that? Like why not? It brings your pleasure in many ways. We need to share, we need to have sex, we need we need we need etc. etc. etc. we're social beings....so to some extent we are dependent on the external environment. You may be happy alone, but you're happier with your wife. So in this sense you need her to be more happy than you are when you are alone.
Entirely self-sufficient means that you don't need any external things to reach your full potential of happiness.
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by eputkonen » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:13 pm

gen6 wrote:If she doesn't make you feel better than what are the reasons that you are with her? If I didn't have to eat to survive or if it didn't bring me any pleasure, why would I do it? Of course i wouldn't.
I hang out withe her because it is fun. But it would be fun also if I was alone. Both are fun in different ways.
Because it is fun (pleasurable, I suppose)...does not mean I depend on it and need it to continue. You can enjoy what is without being attached to it and thereby needing it to continue.
So if you feel absolutely neutral with your wife, why are you with her? Isn't it a waste of time? Or because of reproduction purposes may be? I don't think so...
As I said, because it is fun. Everything is a waste of time...time is meant to be wasted. Whether I waste time alone or with her does not really matter...both are fun.
Why do you give preference to solitude in this scenario?
You can still feel completed, she doesn't have to complete you, however you still need her.
No...there is no need. If she decided to leave tomorrow, I would not feel less than what I am...nor would I feel that I lost something (like I couldn't be happy).
You may be happy alone, but you're happier with your wife. So in this sense you need her to be more happy than you are when you are alone.
I am no happier with my wife than when I was alone. There is a give and take (so to speak)...there are things I can no longer do, but there are new things I can do. There are different pleasures available to those who have a partner, than when alone...but different pleasures only...not better ones.
Entirely self-sufficient means that you don't need any external things to reach your full potential of happiness.
Yes, but why do you equate not needing external things to not having external things?
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by gen6 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:41 pm

I see.
Yes, but why do you equate not needing external things to not having external things?
Because...whatever you have, you need somehow. Why would I have something that I don't need? Why would i want to be random? randomness is no good.
Even you need your wife, because it's fun as you say.
There are different pleasures available to those who have a partner, than when alone...but different pleasures only...not better ones
If they are only different but not better, please seriously tell me, what do you prefer - let's say you have a hobby to make watches, this hobby brings you some kind of pleasure.
What do you prefer now - all life making watches everyday or all life having sex all day or all life being with another person?
What do you choose making watches or being with a person- both are different fun and none of them is better(if we stick to what you say). Is this decision going to be taken randomly? You don't really care what it's going to be? It's just different not better right? If you choose to make watches, this is where we finish the discussion I will have nothing more to say...if you choose to be with a person however....then I can say - Of course being with a person instead of making watches is better! It's better because it's more important for you. Because you cannot neglect the fact that you are human.
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by eputkonen » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:33 pm

gen6 wrote:I see.
Yes, but why do you equate not needing external things to not having external things?
Because...whatever you have, you need somehow.
Incorrect. External things can be present in life without owning them or being attached to them.
Why would I have something that I don't need?
Why do you need all those things that are in your life? I am sure you could live without many of them...and at some point you will live life without them. For whatever comes into the world also leaves this world...there is nothing permanent. And so if you can live without them later...why do you have them now?
If they are only different but not better, please seriously tell me, what do you prefer - let's say you have a hobby to make watches, this hobby brings you some kind of pleasure. What do you prefer now - all life making watches everyday or all life being with another person?
Why do I need to prefer? I have hobbies...and I play with them occassionally, but I have a wife as well. All life can't be one thing or another...nothing lasts forever. It is a mixture of many things starting and stopping...I can enjoy it all without needing any one of them to continue on indefinately.
Of course being with a person instead of making watches is better!
That is your point of view...but in the words of Bodhidharma...in vast emptiness, there is nothing superior and nothing inferior.
Namaste,

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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by gen6 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:12 pm

Why do I need to prefer? I have hobbies...and I play with them occassionally, but I have a wife as well. All life can't be one thing or another...nothing lasts forever. It is a mixture of many things starting and stopping...I can enjoy it all without needing any one of them to continue on indefinitely.
I know all life is a mixture, what I'm doing is to cut the big picture into details to go to its basics so you know what is made of and what is really important. When you go to its basics you will see that we as humans need other humans, this is the most important, other things are lower in the scale. We can understand who we really are when we bring things to their extremes. That's why I bring the things to extreme and ask you to make a choice.To be human means to choose, to make choices. If you can't make this choice, I have nothing more to say.

p.s.
one more thing to say though,
I can enjoy it all without needing any one of them to continue on indefinitely
That's the right way. I also think that a person should not attach to anything not to mention to need this thing to continue indefinitely. I agree. However, there are things that are important and things that are less important. The things that are more important are better than other things. We can't neglect the fact that we're humans.
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by eputkonen » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:42 pm

There is no preference...just acceptance of what is as it is for as long as it is. Whether that means my marriage ends in 30 years or so or ends tomorrow. The choice is not mine whether it continues or ends...nor is there the need for it to continue or end.

The chooser and doer are illusions.
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by gen6 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:01 am

eputkonen wrote:There is no preference...just acceptance of what is as it is for as long as it is. Whether that means my marriage ends in 30 years or so or ends tomorrow. The choice is not mine whether it continues or ends...nor is there the need for it to continue or end.

The chooser and doer are illusions.
Yes yes my friend, acceptance is the biggest key, one who fights against what's happening will never be in peace. Accept everything that happens for as long as it happens. However this does not exclude you making a choice. I don't see the connection? Choices are something, acceptance is another thing. You can accept the consequences of your choices. That's different. People make choices everyday even on subconscious level they still make choices....
I'm not saying that you won't accept whether your marriage ends now or after 30 years, I'm saying that you'd better have the marriage instead of doing your hobby all day and that's where you make a choice? See? Don't escape with the I'll have them both thing :D
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by gen6 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:12 am

Ok, you know, I figured out that we're talking about the two sides of the same coin, and the coin cannot be split apart. We're both right. We're just speaking of different things.

That is your point of view...but in the words of Bodhidharma...in vast emptiness, there is nothing superior and nothing inferior.
My point of view doesn't confront with that. We have unconditional awarness where this statement is valid. We also have our physical limited world where my statement is valid. See? That's so beautiful :) We shouldn't go extremely into the unconditional awarness and we shouldn't go extremely into our physical limited world, in both cases of extreme going into one of the two, we're deprived of something. We should aim for the harmony and golden mean as Aristotle said.

While we live in this limited world, we won't ever be enitrely self-sufficient, when we leave this world, we are entirely self-sufficient. That's my opinion.
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by eputkonen » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:12 pm

gen6 wrote:While we live in this limited world, we won't ever be enitrely self-sufficient, when we leave this world, we are entirely self-sufficient. That's my opinion.
That opinion limits you...and hinders the realization of who/what you really are - the Self.

It does not matter if this body is in the world or not...either way there really is no lack or need for anything.
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by gen6 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:22 pm

Eric,

When you say that I'm really The Self, does this mean that you are denying the body? Or the others things? Please pay attention that if you are in denial of something it can lead to a wrong way. You should take all factors into consideration, denying even 1 factor puts your mind in an inefficient scheme. Full acceptance is the key.
It does not matter if this body is in the world or not...either way there really is no lack or need for anything
How come it doesn't matter if this body is in the world? We use it? We are in this world? You can't deny that? When you leave this world, then it doesn't matter because your real self will be somewhere else, but since you're still here on planet Earth you will have to accept the physical laws and they are limiting. You should adequatly use your body and mind no matter that you know that the real self is something different from them otherwise you would just stand like a statue being your real self until your brain stops functioning :lol: THe real-self doesn't need any movement does it? It's everywhere and nowhere? So why move? Well, because the body needs the move, we are on Earth. What do you think (with your mind that's not the real you but you have to use it) ?
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by eputkonen » Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:22 am

gen6 wrote:How come it doesn't matter if this body is in the world? We use it? We are in this world?
We are not our bodies. You are not in this world...the world is in you.

Standing like a statues being your real self is not how it works. Your comments about "THe real-self doesn't need any movement does it? It's everywhere and nowhere? So why move?" only shows you don't understand. This is a common leap the thinking mind sometimes comes to when it tries to image what it would be like.

Let's put in another way...I have a car, I use it, it is helpful to get around and have fun...but the car is not me. I don't identify with my car.

Or another way, if I am lucid dreaming (dreaming knowing it is a dream) I do it because it fun, and it helps to have a dream character in the dream...but I am not that dream character. It can fly...it can have super-human strength...but you wouldn't call that dream character me, would you? I know from my own dreams that I have then split away and watched that character do things and then "jumped into" another character and adopted its point of view for a while. No dream character is you...you are the dreamer...not the dreamed.
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by gen6 » Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:53 pm

We are not our bodies. You are not in this world...the world is in you.
I acutally wouldn't use the word ,,IN,,. Let's just say, we are part of the world and the world is part of us and we are all together :) THere is no IN and OUT.
"THe real-self doesn't need any movement does it? It's everywhere and nowhere? So why move?" only shows you don't understand.
The mind that arises in you supposes that I don't understand from the line I wrote? I'm ok with that, just know that you can't trust this mind as it's very tricky, especially when it comes to language use. I know that it cannot be described, however language is the only form of communication, plus I have to use my mind to communicate so I need to describe it somehow, just for the communication, it's not really wise to jump to conclusions from what you read.

And please stop with this identification issue. I don't have identification problems, may be the way I express makes the mind in you think that I have such issues. May be I should express differently.

Anyway this discussion is leading nowhere and it's rather destructive than constructive, I will write here no more unless there are some decent thoughts shared.

Cheers
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Re: Can one be self-sufficient? Do we really need a partner?

Post by gen6 » Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:06 pm

gen6 wrote:If we have a partner(girlfriend,boyfriend, wife, husband) this means that we depend on something external in order to feel better. It means that we don't entirely find the happiness in ourselves, that we still need this last drop of something external to be complete, i.e. another human being?
Incorrect. To have a partner of some kind does not mean we depend on something external to feel better. I am perfectly happy by myself...because (using your words: happiness is in ourselves. My wife does not complete me or make me feel better than if I was alone.

So would you be equally happy, if you were the last man on earth with nobody to share your thoughts or experiences? Just you? Imagine it.
Live as if nothing and everything matters at the same time.

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