Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

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gen6
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Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by gen6 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:16 pm

How do you think? Of course one wants happiness and the aim is to change negative with positive schemes, however let's say one doesn't care and for the sake of the experiment wants to change all positive with negative, is this possible using NLP? Would it work and to what extent?
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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by eckhart01 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:10 am

From my basic understanding of Neuro-Linguistic Programming, it seems possible that you could do what you are asking. You would seemingly need to be quite adept at using NLP however. While there exist two opposing schools of thought on the subject, I'm inclined to think that it would work effectively, because at its core it can rewire your brain to become receptive to things it otherwise would resist. The same should be true for switching positive to negative.

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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by Sighclone » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:15 am

I do not think replacing one "neuro-linguistic program" with another is necessarily a path to enlightenment. It may well establish some tranquillity in your personality and allow deeper experiences to occur, granted, but I don't think you can 'program' yourself, your "little me" self, your thought-habits into an essentially nonmental experience.

That said, there seems to be a foundation of fundamental self-worth and acceptance, at an egoic/personality level required to ultimately transcend it. NLP may help one to stabilize in a relatively 'confident' place of self-worth. An experience of pure awakening is sufficiently profound and "self-shattering" that we need to be able to say, after the first taste, "wow...now i really don't know who i am...but I know i'm ok."

And that said, there is always the possibility of a cataclysmic breakthrough like Eckhart and Jac O'Keeffe had which requires months or years of integration with whatever remains of our self-concept on the temporal plane to re-establish a comfort level with our new Self-identity.

Andy
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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by gen6 » Mon Mar 15, 2010 8:21 pm

Sighclone wrote:I do not think replacing one "neuro-linguistic program" with another is necessarily a path to enlightenment. It may well establish some tranquillity in your personality and allow deeper experiences to occur, granted, but I don't think you can 'program' yourself, your "little me" self, your thought-habits into an essentially nonmental experience.

That said, there seems to be a foundation of fundamental self-worth and acceptance, at an egoic/personality level required to ultimately transcend it. NLP may help one to stabilize in a relatively 'confident' place of self-worth. An experience of pure awakening is sufficiently profound and "self-shattering" that we need to be able to say, after the first taste, "wow...now i really don't know who i am...but I know i'm ok."

And that said, there is always the possibility of a cataclysmic breakthrough like Eckhart and Jac O'Keeffe had which requires months or years of integration with whatever remains of our self-concept on the temporal plane to re-establish a comfort level with our new Self-identity.

Andy
Thank you Andy,
But isn't it namely repgoramming that leads most people( I say most people, not all people) to the so called enlightenment, those pointers in Tolle's books, are supposed to change the way you think, to change your thought patterns , to have another view (i.e repgoramming). Every single thing that wants you to be enlightened, to make you feel good, to point you the right way etc etc etc, is uses words to reprogram you, it uses words to penetrate your current thought schemes, to make them unstable and to plant itself there, the olds are gone, the new is here, you come to this forum and say, hey guys, the self is this and this and you sould do this and this and think that way and that way so you get to reach the state that I am now, this is pure repogramming and nothing else.
Don't you agree? :)
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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by Sighclone » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:36 am

I don't know enough about NLP to answer with authority. The only thing any of us can do in this area is speak from personal experience. My experience with NLP is limited to reading something 20 years ago, which I forget, and also a personal technique I have used which I've been told is NLP-like. It goes like this:

If I am feeling some tension about something, say an upcoming exam, I ask myself the question: "How exactly would someone feel if they were very confident about this exam? What would they be feeling and thinking of?" I just go through the cognitive process of answering that question. Not "trying to go there mentally," just answering the question.

Awakening is non-mental. Although it happens to "you," the mind-built self dissolves, and is replaced by a much different sense of Self. That's all I can say about it, because to try to describe it would either take ten paragraphs and create a bunch of concepts which may or may not be received as written, or a koan or two.

So I guess I would say that all of this, speaking only from my experience, and not deep academic study of NLP:
Every single thing that wants you to be enlightened, to make you feel good, to point you the right way etc etc etc, is uses words to reprogram you, it uses words to penetrate your current thought schemes, to make them unstable and to plant itself there, the olds are gone, the new is here, you come to this forum and say, hey guys, the self is this and this and you sould do this and this and think that way and that way so you get to reach the state that I am now, this is pure repogramming and nothing else.
is completely wrong. What is "right" is something each discovers alone, and the mind has no part of it whatsoever, except to try to put words around it later, and fail.

Not one word, one sentence, one paragraph, one book, one poem ever written, including those in this forum can necessarily awaken anyone. And yet, any word sentence, etc. might do it. So might any event.

Meditation can help quiet the mind. Awakening occurs when the mind is still. Some words are better than others at suggesting the conditions for awakening. My favorite is” surrender.” That was what happened to Buddha. Eckhart parsed the sentence “I can’t live with myself anymore.” He was a linguist and that sentence stuck in his craw, followed by the revelation “Maybe only one of them is real.”

I interpret his discovery as actually being “maybe both of them are real.” His egoic self re-emerged after two years on the park bench. But it re-emerged as what it was…a persona and part of the big picture…the ‘separate Eckhart,’ the Ulrich Tolle of Cambridge and Vancouver, of a dysfunctional family of origin, full of ‘stories about Eckhart,’ full of ‘I thoughts’ still existed as a personality within Source.

By conventional definitions in the academic and psychometric world of concepts and formulae, awakening is ‘mystical.’ For some it may feel like a return to a primal condition of pure awareness. For some it might be a gigantic earthquake taking years of repetition and cogitation to absorb. For some it might be a baby step back to the purest simplest experience of a ‘natural state of felt oneness with Being.’

The best thing that the mind can do to assist is self-destruct long enough for unity consciousness to become the only consciousness. What remains when the mind is absent is who we are in our essence. The mind then becomes a fine tool for use in the relative world of separate "little selves." Which is all it ever was, anyway.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by eckhart01 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:53 am

gen6 wrote:
Sighclone wrote:
Thank you Andy,
But isn't it namely repgoramming that leads most people( I say most people, not all people) to the so called enlightenment, those pointers in Tolle's books, are supposed to change the way you think, to change your thought patterns , to have another view (i.e repgoramming). Every single thing that wants you to be enlightened, to make you feel good, to point you the right way etc etc etc, is uses words to reprogram you, it uses words to penetrate your current thought schemes, to make them unstable and to plant itself there, the olds are gone, the new is here, you come to this forum and say, hey guys, the self is this and this and you sould do this and this and think that way and that way so you get to reach the state that I am now, this is pure repogramming and nothing else.
Don't you agree? :)
On the level of form, NLP can be positive for you. Those pointers in Tolle's books are intended to make you stop thinking, not thinking another way.

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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by gen6 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:15 pm

Sighclone wrote:I don't know enough about NLP to answer with authority. The only thing any of us can do in this area is speak from personal experience. My experience with NLP is limited to reading something 20 years ago, which I forget, and also a personal technique I have used which I've been told is NLP-like. It goes like this:

If I am feeling some tension about something, say an upcoming exam, I ask myself the question: "How exactly would someone feel if they were very confident about this exam? What would they be feeling and thinking of?" I just go through the cognitive process of answering that question. Not "trying to go there mentally," just answering the question.

Awakening is non-mental. Although it happens to "you," the mind-built self dissolves, and is replaced by a much different sense of Self. That's all I can say about it, because to try to describe it would either take ten paragraphs and create a bunch of concepts which may or may not be received as written, or a koan or two.

So I guess I would say that all of this, speaking only from my experience, and not deep academic study of NLP:
Every single thing that wants you to be enlightened, to make you feel good, to point you the right way etc etc etc, is uses words to reprogram you, it uses words to penetrate your current thought schemes, to make them unstable and to plant itself there, the olds are gone, the new is here, you come to this forum and say, hey guys, the self is this and this and you sould do this and this and think that way and that way so you get to reach the state that I am now, this is pure repogramming and nothing else.
is completely wrong. What is "right" is something each discovers alone, and the mind has no part of it whatsoever, except to try to put words around it later, and fail.

Not one word, one sentence, one paragraph, one book, one poem ever written, including those in this forum can necessarily awaken anyone. And yet, any word sentence, etc. might do it. So might any event.

Meditation can help quiet the mind. Awakening occurs when the mind is still. Some words are better than others at suggesting the conditions for awakening. My favorite is” surrender.” That was what happened to Buddha. Eckhart parsed the sentence “I can’t live with myself anymore.” He was a linguist and that sentence stuck in his craw, followed by the revelation “Maybe only one of them is real.”

I interpret his discovery as actually being “maybe both of them are real.” His egoic self re-emerged after two years on the park bench. But it re-emerged as what it was…a persona and part of the big picture…the ‘separate Eckhart,’ the Ulrich Tolle of Cambridge and Vancouver, of a dysfunctional family of origin, full of ‘stories about Eckhart,’ full of ‘I thoughts’ still existed as a personality within Source.

By conventional definitions in the academic and psychometric world of concepts and formulae, awakening is ‘mystical.’ For some it may feel like a return to a primal condition of pure awareness. For some it might be a gigantic earthquake taking years of repetition and cogitation to absorb. For some it might be a baby step back to the purest simplest experience of a ‘natural state of felt oneness with Being.’

The best thing that the mind can do to assist is self-destruct long enough for unity consciousness to become the only consciousness. What remains when the mind is absent is who we are in our essence. The mind then becomes a fine tool for use in the relative world of separate "little selves." Which is all it ever was, anyway.

Andy
Thank you, and you are right from your point of view, If I had your ideas in my head, I would also say the words you say. What grabs my attention is that you probably have a very narrow idea of what is mind. Tell me what do you imagine when you hear the word mind? Try to describe it? I believe it's gonna be very narrow describtion comapred to mine.
Furthermore as I read your words carefully, I realize where's the difference, is it possible that I was born what you call enlightened? I never had the sense of I? It's very strange for me tor read ,,after that you have a different sense of I etc, identity stuff etc, all this matter is very distant from me, I can't recognize a single thing in myself fromall those concepts that you speak of. You also talk of some mind-build self that dissolves, what is that Mind built self? I don't have such? How does it feels like? Can you describe it? Is it disturbing?
You also speak of silence of the mind etc...this is also unknown to me? I have never in my entire life felt any noise in my head or that my mind is my enemy or that it is not silent, I function properly since birth. I don't need anything to be silent in me as it was never loud or disturbing, I guess then if I have to use your categories I'm born with a silent mind by default? That's why it's so strange to me?
I have entirely different ideas of how a human looks, how it functions etc, how the mind functions what is the mind etc, in my point of view, it's all reporgramming, knowing what happens when you read something, even this disollving that you speak of, it's also reprogramming, may be I need to clarify what do I understand by repogramming your mind? I have a different view of how thoughts work, of your brain works, a view that is very supported by the neurology and all latest research (that's what helped me form this view) - and it fits perfectly. I don't know..it's strange.....I have to write like 3 pages to comapre the differences between my perception of how things are and why it is like that, and your perception of things, to tell you exactly where all your thought schemes fit my schemes, to tell you where I don't think you are right , to tell you where your thought schemes are not efficient enough to explain some things(they are efficient for you however but are limited in a way) etc. It's a lot of work...

eckhart01:
On the level of form, NLP can be positive for you. Those pointers in Tolle's books are intended to make you stop thinking, not thinking another way.
But that's what they told you it is for, to stop thinking? You cannot stop thinking my friend. Tell my how do you feel the mind? How does it feels like? Can you feel your mind? What it feels like when it stops? What it feels like when it's running? Can you draw a line? A boundary? Please do it, it will be a huge progress for the mankind, you can also be nominiated for a nobel prize. ALso, define mind? You are not even aware of how you function and you are saying that something is desinged to stop you thinking? This is like absolute W A W ! Do you know what is thinking? How does thinking feels? How many types of thinking there are? Describe thinking? Is it a painful process? Is it pleasurable? How does it feels when you think? Do you know that? If you don't, don't tell me you can stop thinking, you cannot, even if you think you've stopped from some odd reason :wink:

I await response from both of you with eagerness.
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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by Sighclone » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:39 pm

gen6 -

Yes, we probably are using "mind" differently...sorry. I'm using Eckhart's definition which is the thinking faculty. Minds contain, discover, manipulate thoughts and ideas, concepts, and identities based on ideas and abstractions. They learn and process languages, do math, they remember stuff, they forget stuff. They can create and they can receive intuitive input. They create the egoic sense of self, constructed from many varieties of "I-thoughts" including "I have a good mind." The experience of the mind has a natural limitation when it comes to awakening -- awakening does not happen to it. It is a powerful but limited tool.

Ken Wilber and others use the phrase "Big Mind" to include the capacity for awakening out of the conditioned self created by identification with the thinking mind. That's too bad, because we start talking about "mind" from different perspectives. Maybe that's what you mean.

Andy
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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by gen6 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:28 am

Sighclone wrote:gen6 -

Yes, we probably are using "mind" differently...sorry. I'm using Eckhart's definition which is the thinking faculty. Minds contain, discover, manipulate thoughts and ideas, concepts, and identities based on ideas and abstractions. They learn and process languages, do math, they remember stuff, they forget stuff. They can create and they can receive intuitive input. They create the egoic sense of self, constructed from many varieties of "I-thoughts" including "I have a good mind." The experience of the mind has a natural limitation when it comes to awakening -- awakening does not happen to it. It is a powerful but limited tool.

Ken Wilber and others use the phrase "Big Mind" to include the capacity for awakening out of the conditioned self created by identification with the thinking mind. That's too bad, because we start talking about "mind" from different perspectives. Maybe that's what you mean.

Andy
Yes, thank you.
See what I mean is that, reprogramming means to start thinking in a different way. All teachings influence your thinking and way of thinking, they are supposed to change the way you think about everything, thus you repgoram yourself. What is reprogramming? You believe you are the MIND, after 1 month reading of teachings you believe that you are not the MIND, this is reprogramming caused by the info you've acquired from the teachings. Even if you want to ,,stop your mind,, (this is impossible however, but I'm using this phrase), you will still need to change it first and then stop it, it won't stop if you don't start thinking differently about it. Thus everything aims to change the way you think about things, all pointers try to point you something, the truth and thus you start thinking differently of the situation(you are reprogrammed already, but repeating the new beliefes) and then you stop thinking because you've changed the way you think. I don't know if I was clear on that, sounds confusing.
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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by Quinn » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:23 pm

Hi gen6,
I think I understand what you are saying. At first, I wondered about that, too - are we just picking up a new belief system ("you are NOT the mind")?

But over time, I began to see that there is a difference in this teaching. That it's not just re-programming, even though we do end up re-programmed. ha!

It's like.....say I never tasted tea and I don't want to. I've learned (been programmed) that tea is bitter and unpleasant. And I read a book about how wonderful tea is. Or I do affirmations in front of the mirror - "Tea is great. Tea is great". Until I finally decide that tea is great. I've been re-programmed.

But this book says; I've found that tea is great, but don't take my word for it. Drop your old thinking about tea and be open to it. Try tea. And so I try tea. And I like it.

My thinking about tea has now changed. Others might think I've been re-programmed, and in a way I have. But not really.

I guess what I'm saying is that re-programming is only based on changing thinking. But this is about experiencing a different way of living that ends up changing our thinking.

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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by gen6 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:32 pm

Quinn wrote:Hi gen6,
I think I understand what you are saying. At first, I wondered about that, too - are we just picking up a new belief system ("you are NOT the mind")?

But over time, I began to see that there is a difference in this teaching. That it's not just re-programming, even though we do end up re-programmed. ha!

It's like.....say I never tasted tea and I don't want to. I've learned (been programmed) that tea is bitter and unpleasant. And I read a book about how wonderful tea is. Or I do affirmations in front of the mirror - "Tea is great. Tea is great". Until I finally decide that tea is great. I've been re-programmed.

But this book says; I've found that tea is great, but don't take my word for it. Drop your old thinking about tea and be open to it. Try tea. And so I try tea. And I like it.

My thinking about tea has now changed. Others might think I've been re-programmed, and in a way I have. But not really.

I guess what I'm saying is that re-programming is only based on changing thinking. But this is about experiencing a different way of living that ends up changing our thinking.
I understand, but most people, cannot taste it and change after that, they 1st must change, why? because they need to dissolve their previous ideas, thought schemes in general, they need to literally dissolve it, this is reprogramming again. If just by reading the book, you instantly start to feel what you're supposed to feel, congrats, but it seems kind of impossible to me.
I'm talking for the cases where one doesn't suddenly get hit by the pleasurable bliss as a final result of being in depression for too long.

p.s
But this book says; I've found that tea is great, but don't take my word for it. Drop your old thinking about tea and be open to it. Try tea. And so I try tea. And I like it.
+ dropping your old thinking is changing the way you think, you drop something to substitute it with another thing, you drop 1000 thoughts to generalize them in one thought, but it's still reprogramming. The book just uses a nice way to penetrate in your thoughts systems and make them soft(to doubt in them) so they can be changed or dissolved.
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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by Quinn » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:51 pm

gen6 wrote: If just by reading the book, you instantly start to feel what you're supposed to feel, congrats, but it seems kind of impossible to me.
I'm talking for the cases where one doesn't suddenly get hit by the pleasurable bliss as a final result of being in depression for too long.
Oh, yes. I totally agree. And I think that's most of us. But still, it's not taking on a new way of thinking. It's just getting rid of old thinking to be able to see things more clearly. Which takes a whole lot of time (for me, anyway). Byron Katie talks about 'questioning our thinking' - I think it's more like that. One by one, just looking at a thought and saying - where did I get this preference or judgment or opinion? Do I know the whole story? Or is it based on something that happened to me in the past? Could I be wrong? Could the opposite also be true? And then, after awhile, I become more open to what's in front of me instead of adding my own 'stuff' to it.

I haven't experienced the 'bliss thing'. I'm just interested in the clarity part.

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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by gen6 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:04 pm

absolutely, to question your own thinking is still reprogramming, who questions your own thinking, well your own mind. Getting rid of certain thoughts means that you still have to get a new idea, you get the idea ,,THIS IS AN ILLUSION,, this idea includes 1567 thoughts(which are an illusion), until you really believe and feel those thoughts are not true, because it doesn't just happen like that, you will repogram yourself. The process of permanently deleting a thought (that there is GOD)is reprogramming.
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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by Quinn » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:38 pm

Well, ok. I guess you can use the word reprogram to describe how the mind changes. But it's a computer word and, to me, feels like a narrow definition of what's going on. There's a spontaneity and openness that is very un-computer-like. To me, it's more like un-programming.

I didn't 'take on' the concept that life is an illusion. I realized it. I recognized it.

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Re: Can NLP work for changing all positive thoughts to negative?

Post by gen6 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:49 pm

All clear :)
Last edited by gen6 on Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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