Beliefs

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums
Post Reply
User avatar
Pierre
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:32 am
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada

Beliefs

Post by Pierre » Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:57 pm

Dear all,

This morning, I would like to bring up the subject of beliefs.

Because it seems to me that the mind is in the habit of adopting beliefs or faiths, and does base most of its thoughts and actions on this very relative ground.

For what is a belief? Isn't it always about something that we don't know? Because if we know, if we have a direct personal experience in the now, there is only reality, isn't it?

Is it that the mind would feel lost without it? Or perhaps the ego needs to take position, choose, judge, favor a political party, belong to an ideology or religion, decide that this is good while that is wrong, in order to continue to exist?

Is it just possible that maybe the nature of the ego is the sum of all these, maybe without these there is no ego, no conflict or tension, but only peace and harmony with what IS? Without the desire to colour or change it?

:roll:

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4581
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Post by kiki » Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:02 pm

Is it just possible that maybe the nature of the ego is the sum of all these,
Yes, I would agree with this. Ego is nothing but a group of thoughts which is clung to, and which only seems real because we tend to replay these particularized thoughts in the mind - they provide a reference point for everything which is seen not to be "me". This is how the sense of a separate self perpetuates itself, and where "fear and problems" arise and take hold.
maybe without these there is no ego, no conflict or tension, but only peace and harmony with what IS? Without the desire to colour or change it?
Yes. The seeing through the ego, the disidentification with it, is what awakening is. Being awake to one's true nature naturally brings with it peace, harmony, fulfillment, and contentment - these "qualities" are the "by-products" of consciousness. When consciously awake there is no need or desire for anything to be different than what it is.

k

weichen
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:37 am
Location: NYC

empowering beliefs

Post by weichen » Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:26 pm

I would consider "belief" to be a mind technique. According to ET, all techniques have downside because techniques tend to bring "TIME". "TIME' gets in the way of the power of "NOW".

When you use a empowering belief (such as "all I need is within me now"), you normally say it out loud, write it down on paper, post in on the wall, repeat it with emotion many times.

ET's belief is somewhat different. e.g. ET believes that you can access the infinite power of the unmanifested (unconditioned consciousness, true essence of self) by being a silent observer of the thinker. When you use this belief you are silent. Out of the silence, correct action often flow out immediately, it could be repeating out emotionally to myself "all I need is wtihin me now".

Maybe some of ET's belief only has upside with no downside!

Larryfroot
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 304
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 9:49 pm
Location: Devon, United Kingdom

Post by Larryfroot » Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:12 am

Belief is a practical tool for negotiating physical reality or an extrapolation of a set of desires that lead us out of any sort of reality.

Yet we are stuck with the language and I do have to say that, for example, I believe Eckhart Tolle.

But I know in what sense this belief comes from and am comfortable with it.

Belief isn't so much of a problem. It is a structure after all. it is the content of that structure that is an issue!
Many a mickle muches a markle.

Sunshine5
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:39 pm

belief and truth

Post by Sunshine5 » Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:36 pm

I think a belief is a stepping stone to knowingness. When you believe something you don't know it - but you are on your way. In a sense you are putting your trust in something other than your ego and following where it leads, to see if it ultimately results in truth. What you believe is your path out of (or into) the ego.

sunshine :)

weichen
Posts: 734
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:37 am
Location: NYC

Into ego vs out of ego

Post by weichen » Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:24 pm

Sunshine 5 wrote
What you believe is your path out of (or into) the ego

ET, in his early years, had a belief (answers to life happiness lies in the realm of intellect, the mind).

He probably have explored the realm of the mind much more than most other people on this planet, and his complete withdrawal from the mind at 30 probably had something to do with disillusion of that belief.

can I boldly predict: how far can you get out of ego depends on how far you had gone into ego ?

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4581
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Post by kiki » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:36 am

weichen wrote:can I boldly predict: how far can you get out of ego depends on how far you had gone into ego ?
There is no "you" that goes into or out of ego. To think that is part of an egoic strategy to remain identified with ego. "You" don't go into and out of ego - rather, there is the recognition that there IS NO YOU AT ALL TO BEGIN WITH, only identification with the egoic sense that comes and goes. This recognition of ego/mind when it is here is through consciousness itself, and that is what you are. You are consciousness, and consciousness is here always.

Perhaps what you are meaning to say is that the more tenaciously one is identified with ego, the harder it is to disidentify with. Egoic identification is for most people deeply entrenched, and the more that it is entrenched the harder it seems to disidentify with. I say it seems to be hard because it is the ego itself which labels it so. Ego tries to get rid of itself and wonders why it can't, and so it seems to be hard.

Ego doesn't really want to get rid of itself, because then it is faced with its own demise and this creates fear. A way to avoid this fear is to strategize ways to become "enlightened". Of course, it isn't egos which become enlightened, so this is a very subtle and cleaver way for ego to remain in control.

Awakening is seeing through this, it is the seeing of ego at play and the knowing that ego isn't even real to begin with. The "seeing" of this is by consiousness/You. There really is no need to get rid of ego to awaken, only to see directly in the moment of the arising of ego and mind and to recognize/know directly that YOU are actually the consciousness in which ego arises. This isn't an intellectual understanding, but is knowingness itself - consciousness. To be firmly established in consciously recognizing oneself as consciousness is liberation.

It is no different than you as a dream character being told that you aren't real by someone else within the dream. The dream character won't believe it, but when you wake up in the morning you know that the dream character wasn't real, that it was only a temporary creation arising out of consciousness that was momentarily identified with.

You as ego in the daytime waking state are also only a dream character, and are being told that you don't really exist. Most who hear this won't believe it, just as the night-time dream character won't believe it. But when there is self-inquiry to locate the ego it won't be found. Only consciousness will be found in which ideas of "me" arise. To "awaken" is to awaken out of the "idea of me" - there is simply the disidentification with the ego, leaving one consciously aware of one's true nature - consciousness itself.


k

dancer
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:44 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Post by dancer » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:31 am

Hi Kiki,

You wrote,

Yes, I would agree with this. Ego is nothing but a group of thoughts which is clung to, and which only seems real because we tend to replay these particularized thoughts in the mind - they provide a reference point for everything which is seen not to be "me". This is how the sense of a separate self perpetuates itself, and where "fear and problems" arise and take hold.
When I read that statement that is underlined, I looked at my body and I looked at the computer and the table it sits on. Now, my mind says I know I'm not the computer or the table because I can walk away from these. But I can't walk away from my physical body. And my consciousness seems to follow my eyes and head, wherever I look my consciousness or awareness seems to be focused in that direction.

I read somewhere that the physical body arises as a result of the mind.

I'm not sure what my question is. Maybe I'm wondering if the entire experience of "me" that I described above is just part of the illusion. I suppose it is. That's a darn good illusion, it sure has me mesmerized.

However, I am "watching" the entire situation and if I don't think about it, there is simply acceptance of what is.
:)

User avatar
Pierre
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:32 am
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada

Post by Pierre » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:00 pm

Hello dear all,

and thanks to everyone above who have contributed with very insightful suggestions and views.

Some of you have expressed that beliefs can be a kind of "mind technique", "practical tool" or "stepping stone to knowingness". I have to admit that, like many others, I have shared that thought for many long years. But when looking back, I now question the validity or usefulness of ANY belief. I doubt that THEY have contributed at all in the enlightenment process. Of course, they may have served as a kind of moral support, but at the same time they have strengthened the ego, so they may in fact have delayed any 'awakening'. All products of the mind contribute to the world of illusion... how could they possibly lead to the unveiling of reality?

Even if I say: "I believe Eckhart Tolle", what is really happening? I intellectually agree with what he is saying, without having seen it for myself, without KNOWING, isn't it? I am taking position, accepting his words according to my current understanding, but I don't SEE, do I? Obviously not... otherwise I would rather say: "Yes, that is exactly it!".

So I am asking: why believe at all??? Until we actually SEE something (by direct observation in the now), we won't "get" it anyway, even if the mind has already stored up the intellectual concept. At least, it has been the case with my personal experience.

I would like to emphasize a excerpt from Kiki's comments: "...only to see directly in the moment...". I would even say that SEEING IS EVERYTHING...

If I may illustrate with the example of the blind: Let's say that I know someone who has been blind since birth. I bring him/her over to the sea shore and say:"My friend, if you could see how marvelous the water is. The blue is not a solid colour but translucent with infinite shades in perpetual movement...". And he/she replies: "Yes, I believe you. The ocean is certainly the most beautiful thing, since others have also said it".

And then the blind can go about and repeat this around... but until he/she has recovered eyesight, the belief will remain an IDEA that has no relation whatsoever with the real thing... with what IS.

Respectfully,

Pierre

User avatar
kiki
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4581
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Wherever "here" happens to be

Post by kiki » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:09 pm

Pierre wrote:So I am asking: why believe at all??? Until we actually SEE something (by direct observation in the now), we won't "get" it anyway, even if the mind has already stored up the intellectual concept. At least, it has been the case with my personal experience.
Yes - there is no need to believe anything to awaken. Beliefs are only stumbling blocks that get in the way of seeing. Words and pointers which arise from "this" can resonate with listeners/readers, but to stay with those words on the level of the mind is to miss what they are pointing to.
I would like to emphasize a excerpt from Kiki's comments: "...only to see directly in the moment...". I would even say that SEEING IS EVERYTHING...
Yes - seeing is everything. This "seeing" is knowingness itself, is consciousness/You.

k

weopposedeception
Posts: 272
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:06 am
Location: Arizona

Post by weopposedeception » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:25 am

Belief is a substitute for knowledge.

User avatar
din
Posts: 952
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:56 pm
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Post by din » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:10 pm

Belief is a substitute for knowledge.
Belief involves thought.

It is efforting.

What is left when you stop efforting, thinking?

Just being. :)

Post Reply