How does subjective experience come about?

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WildFlower
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How does subjective experience come about?

Post by WildFlower » Mon Jun 28, 2010 11:38 pm

Hi, everyone:

How does subjective experience come about? Or rather if conciousness - the same, one conciousness - is the experience of everything in the universe, how come the conciousness 'I' experience is unique and unwhole. I can't experience what is happening 13 billion light years away on a foreign star or planet any more than I can consciously experience what my dog is doing when I leave home.

Eckhart introduced me to spirituality 3 or 4 years ago and since then it's become a big part of my life. Even my egoic life. I'm not enlightened, but I have had many, very deep spiritual experiences and I know at a very fundamental level that conciousness is nondual. Every day I become enlightened only to return to ego again. It's fine though because I make progress and I'm not in any rush. My ego is about as healthy and content as an ego can be, and this is because I daily meditate and realise I'm not my ego. My meditation takes me to a place where there are no objects - be it physical objects, or thought-feeling objects - everything disappears. Literally everything. And all that is left is pure conciousness. No time, no dimensions, no objects - absolutely nothing but conciousness. After I can't say how long, because I can't tell, I open my eyes and wow. Inner peace, and everything just feels right in a perfect kind of way. I've experienced conciousness prior to objects in it's pure state, but a few hours after meditating as I'm doing what I'm doing in normal, waking awareness with my eyes open I see the world as a subjective experience. How does that come about? This is purely to stimulate intellectual debate I know, but I believe intellectual debate is important if spirituality is ever to gain momentum in a big way all over the world.

I'm really intrigued as to how subjective experience arises and how it relates to the physical world. I can't stomach the notion that we are 'souls' of the same conciousness cut up into little pieces temporarily until we eventually become whole again. to misuse a word, can anyone 'enlighten' me?

Thanks a lot guys.
Great forum!
WildFlower

tietzmann
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Re: How does subjective experience come about?

Post by tietzmann » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:37 am

Hi WildFlower,

This seems to be a very advanced question and I'm not sure I can answer, but let me try. :-)
WildFlower wrote:Hi, everyone:
How does subjective experience come about? Or rather if conciousness - the same, one conciousness - is the experience of everything in the universe, how come the conciousness 'I' experience is unique and unwhole. I can't experience what is happening 13 billion light years away on a foreign star or planet any more than I can consciously experience what my dog is doing when I leave home.
That's the way consciousness wants you to experience the universe.
WildFlower wrote: Eckhart introduced me to spirituality 3 or 4 years ago and since then it's become a big part of my life. Even my egoic life. I'm not enlightened, but I have had many, very deep spiritual experiences and I know at a very fundamental level that conciousness is nondual.
Great! My experience also tells me consciousness is nondual, because it judges nothing. There is no good or bad, right or wrong. What gives labels and judges is the mind.
WildFlower wrote: Every day I become enlightened only to return to ego again. It's fine though because I make progress and I'm not in any rush. My ego is about as healthy and content as an ego can be, and this is because I daily meditate and realise I'm not my ego. My meditation takes me to a place where there are no objects - be it physical objects, or thought-feeling objects - everything disappears. Literally everything. And all that is left is pure conciousness. No time, no dimensions, no objects - absolutely nothing but conciousness. After I can't say how long, because I can't tell, I open my eyes and wow. Inner peace, and everything just feels right in a perfect kind of way. I've experienced conciousness prior to objects in it's pure state, but a few hours after meditating as I'm doing what I'm doing in normal, waking awareness with my eyes open I see the world as a subjective experience. How does that come about? This is purely to stimulate intellectual debate I know, but I believe intellectual debate is important if spirituality is ever to gain momentum in a big way all over the world.
What do you mean by subjective world? The world as the ego sees it?
I have watched many videos that Eckhart speaks about meditation and he says the "real" meditation is out in the world of form talking to people, walking on the street, at Starbucks (seems to be his favorite place), because meditation with the eyes closed can become a "controlled" and "egoic" experience. It's like you can only access the Now when everything around you is quiet and nice.
So, the challenge is to keep yourself into the "Now" state whatever you are doing and wherever you are.
WildFlower wrote: I'm really intrigued as to how subjective experience arises and how it relates to the physical world. I can't stomach the notion that we are 'souls' of the same conciousness cut up into little pieces temporarily until we eventually become whole again. to misuse a word, can anyone 'enlighten' me?

Thanks a lot guys.
Great forum!
WildFlower
Well, in the movie Peaceful Warrior based on Dan Millman's book, the "master" says: "rule number one, Paradox, life is a mystery, don't waste time trying to figure it out." :-)

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Ananda
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Re: How does subjective experience come about?

Post by Ananda » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:09 am

Hello WildFlower

how come the conciousness 'I' experience is unique and unwhole
Through misperception the Self is assumed to be attached to, as or within the body. From this assumption comes the limited viewpoint of the Self being an object within space. The Self is unique (but not individual) but is also completely whole. In order for it to be whole there cannot be any divison in it, no distinction whatsoever- this means that it cannot be an object, and so cannot be in space. The subjective experience of being limited and confined to one area in space is the experience of the body, its senses, sense objects and mind. The witness of this experience is also the witness of the body, and this witness is the Self. It is the body which feels restricted and limited, not the Self.
I can't experience what is happening 13 billion light years away on a foreign star or planet any more than I can consciously experience what my dog is doing when I leave home.
Let's look at the second part of this quote. You say " any more than I can consciously experience what my dog is doing when I leave home." If you examine this sentence closely you will see what is going on here. You have identified yourself as the body. Which 'I' leaves home? if the I can move distances then it is within space. If it is within space then it is a form object. If it is a form object it is limited and separate from other form objects- therefore it's vantage point (subjective experience) is limited and caught in duality. You have revealed to yourself with your own insight some very profound realizations, such as this;
My meditation takes me to a place where there are no objects - be it physical objects, or thought-feeling objects - everything disappears. Literally everything. And all that is left is pure conciousness. No time, no dimensions, no objects - absolutely nothing but conciousness
In this state you have realized the essential nature of who you are- objectless consciousness. In this state there is no universe, no space, no planets, no travelling or moving, no dog, no body and no subjective limited viewpoint. This is the absolute state of reality. There is no question of being limited or bound in this awareness, and no question of distance, space or travelling, so do you see how absurd your question about 'leaving home' was?

You must remain cemented in this state of Self awareness, because otherwise the bondage which arises as bodily identification will not be rooted out entirely. This is why you experience 'swing' states of pure awareness and egoic posturing. You have not fully rooted out object centric consciousness- you have not realized fully that you are not the body, nor the mind which postures its individuality. The fundamental error still goes unremoved. Know yourself to be pure consciousness only and not anything else at all. Know it fully in your whole being that you are the unchanging, ever constant witness of the body and mind. The idea of individuality arises in thinking, along with that is identification of the Self being the body, the Self as the doer and agent of all action and all other limited viewpoints. Cut the root of the weed with the sword of discrimination, remain only as the Self of awareness until all thinking ceases and then cling on to the Self even then until there is never any more confusing yourself as the mind.

The subjective experience is a product of the body in the waking and dream states. It is a product of the mind, the senses, and the sense objects. It is a product of the spatial relationship between the body and other objects. All of this arises in the body and mind. The confusion arises when the mind assumes the form of individuality, and the Self is covered by the limiting viewpoint which is projected by it (the mind).
I can't stomach the notion that we are 'souls' of the same conciousness cut up into little pieces temporarily until we eventually become whole again
Indeed, this is a false viewpoint which still relies on a trace of individuality projected by the mind. The Self is one only, and is all pervading, it is everywhere or nowhere because space does not exist in it, it can never be 'somewhere' in space because then it is an object, separate and limited.

You have realized the Self, surely, but you do not yet have the ultimate certainty that ' I am That'. Please remain earnest and abide in the Self as much as you can, and then all joy and all knowledge will be yours.

:D

pixiedust
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Re: How does subjective experience come about?

Post by pixiedust » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:51 am

wow that sounds scary, guess I'm well and truly identified with my mind right now. What about family and jobs and enjoying the dream? Dont you think there needs to be a balance? I cannot commit to doing as you say because quite frankly I'm too scared, I have a son and partner and love my horses. I guess the time is right for some and not for others.
PS. What is your meditation technique?

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Mouse
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Re: How does subjective experience come about?

Post by Mouse » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:46 am

How does subjective experience come about?

I stop being unconscious. Thinking stops and I see this existence through my body. I see and feel the sensation of now. I come to my senses.

The nothing within is reflected by space without, the mind sits between and separates inner from outer with a continuous unseen,unconscious thought or attitude of 'I am separate'.

When I stop judging my self I see the 'default' state of being.... the sensational state of now..... Inner is in perfect harmony with outer..... my thought is the only aberration.

I think you have that intellectual thing going and it is separating you from being really simple. It is a hell of a death but it is worth it.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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Ananda
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Re: How does subjective experience come about?

Post by Ananda » Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:45 pm

wow that sounds scary
Hello, I've been watching some videos by Mooji, and in quite a few he discusses the fear that you have been recently feeling. Please have a look through some of the videos at his website- and see if they resonate with you.

http://www.mooji.org/videos.html


PS. What is your meditation technique?
Discrimination between the Seer and the Seen (Self awareness).

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Sighclone
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Re: How does subjective experience come about?

Post by Sighclone » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:23 pm

WF -

Two books you might enjoy: (1) John Welwood's "Toward a Psychology of Awakening" -- he spends several chapters addressing the ego, the "sense of self" you wake up to every morning. (Gee, I'm still "me.") and (2) Tim Freke's "How Long is Now" in which he talks about the "separate self" we perceive and how that folds into the Big Picture.

These are somewhat different approaches to your fine question, which merits more than a paragraph or two. Both are written by spiritually evolved fine writers.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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