Why was Jesus Crucified?

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Salem
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Why was Jesus Crucified?

Post by Salem » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:31 pm

Although theology will probably come into this a bit, I don't mean this to be a theological discussion, first off.

A friend of mine posed me a question I couldn't really answer. Jesus talked about messages of peace and forgiveness, but also made remarks about fighting, in one instance saying something to the effect of "I bring not a shield but a sword". So he talked about taking action.

But even besides that, why do you think he let himself be captured and executed? He was one of the wisest teachers to ever live, and what was he trying to teach in this case? Non-violence or non-resistance? If that's the case, why did he upset the status quo to begin with?
"The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love." — Meister Eckhart

18andlife
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Re: Why was Jesus Crucified?

Post by 18andlife » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:25 pm

Adyashanti did a really great cd set "I AM, the nondual teachings of Jesus" where he addresses some of these topics at length. It a very very insightful discourse.

Adyashanti made the point that unlike Buddha, Jesus had the misfortune of showing in a time and place were people didn't really understand him at all.

He also commented that the moment you mentioned when Jesus let's him self be captured and executed is perhaps the most "human" moment in all of spirituality. First Jesus speaking to God says "can you get me out of this??" and then he says "thy will be done" It's a great moment of spiritual surrender.

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Salem
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Re: Why was Jesus Crucified?

Post by Salem » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:34 pm

Yeah but there is no shaming in running if you are innocent, correct? If it were a combat situation and one person stayed behind so the others could escape, that's one thing, but Jesus was the only one being hunted.

Tolle says you enjoy something, or you change it, or you accept it. Certainly Jesus didn't enjoy the prospect of being caught and killed, yet when the time came, he accepted it. But why didn't he change it when he had the chance? What lesson, if any, was he trying to teach?
"The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love." — Meister Eckhart

18andlife
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Re: Why was Jesus Crucified?

Post by 18andlife » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:38 am

The teaching is that his life was not his own. His personal will and desire was a part of the whole manifestion but yet it did not take precident over the whole manifestion.

As far as I can tell, the same goes for you and I.

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Re: Why was Jesus Crucified?

Post by snowheight » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:36 am

First off, this is a non-dual post. I just want to share a couple of observations.

Salem: do you notice any particular differences between early European religions (and also early Judaism), and Christianity?

The one big difference that I have in mind is that of sacrifice. One of the most important spiritual innovations of the Christian faith was, and still is, on a weekly basis in the form of communion and passing the collection plate, the replacement of the actual sacrifice, mostly of animals, and in some extreme cases, if certain sources are to be believed, human life, with continued recognition and honoring of the sacrifice of Christ.

You really have to ask the question, if not for Christ's sacrifice, would the message of the Christian church have been as powerful and widely disseminated?

Then of course there is the purpose of this sacrifice -- so that all humanity's sins may be redeemed. This is the heart and root of the most powerful message delivered by Christianity, that of God's forgiveness.

But of course (and I do not mean to be offensive here), I'm sure you were aware of this ... were you just baiting a discussion of it?
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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Salem
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Re: Why was Jesus Crucified?

Post by Salem » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:22 pm

I'm not sure what non-duality means, but I assume it means Oneness with everything? It's a term I hadn't really seen before joining this forum.

Second, no, I was not trying to bait a discussion. :-) I come from a Christian background and am familiar with the the belief system of Jesus' sacrifice to take on the weight of human sin.

My reason for asking the question was to hear how those who view Jesus as an teacher leading humanity to recognize their connection to God, and what their interpretation of his giving up his life meant.

Like I said, I asked this because a friend of mine asked me this question and I couldn't answer it. I was trying to explain what I guess non-duality is to her, and Jesus came up a couple of times in the discussion and she told me she thought Jesus was being inconsistent about talking about bringing not a shield but a sword (Tolle talks about changing what you can, if you don't like it and can't accept it, hence the connection) and then letting himself get caught and killed.

Also, I have learned a little bit about older forms of Christianity and Judaism, but just enough to be aware of them, not to speak about them. But I like studying this kind of history.
"The eye through which I see God is the same eye through which God sees me; my eye and God's eye are one eye, one seeing, one knowing, one love." — Meister Eckhart

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Re: Why was Jesus Crucified?

Post by 18andlife » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:55 pm

But I like studying this kind of history.
Same here, there are some exceptional non-dual teachings in Christianity. If you are interested some of the best sources to look at are: Meister Eckhart, John of the Cross, St Teresa of Avila, and probably best of all: The Gnostic Gospels which are dated around the same time as the historical Bible but were not canonised. Have a look at the Gospel of Thomas for example, as far as I am concerned it's as clear as a bell, and on par with the best non-dual teachings of any other tradition.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

97. Jesus said, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a woman who was carrying a jar full of corn meal home from the market. While she was walking along, the handle of the jar broke and the corn meal spilled behind her along the road. She didn't know it and hadn't noticed a problem. When she returned home, she put the jar down and discovered that it was empty."

I've studied zen koans and Buddhism top-to-bottom and practiced extensively in Buddhist traditions and I've honestly never encountered a simile in Buddhism that can top that one from Gospel of Thomas.

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Re: Why was Jesus Crucified?

Post by kiki » Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:06 am

I'm not sure what non-duality means, but I assume it means Oneness with everything?
Quite simply, it means not two. There is only consciousness. What You are, Pure Consciousness, is the only thing that truly exists, and Consciousness is not separate from anything.

So, in actuality there is no real separate entity that becomes "one with everything", though there may be an experience by the imagined separate entity that is described as a merging into oneness with everything. As wonderful as that may be, however, it is only an experience in the mind, and all experiences come and go because they are part of the world of form.

The potential problem with those kinds of experiences is that they can sustain the illusion of a "me" that can become "one with everything", and so a journey is embarked upon to recapture that same kind of experience. This can set you off on a side journey that clouds the realization of the truth that You are simply Consciousness/Awareness itself. Even the illusory ego is not separate from Consciousness/You. Some even go so far as to say that there isn't even an illusion of the ego since ALL IS CONSCIOUSNESS because ego needs time for its existence and there IS NO TIME! For a profoundly deep and comprehensive exploration of this read Peter Dzuiban's Consciousness is All. This book will likely turn your world completely on its head. You have been warned! :wink:
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Re: Why was Jesus Crucified?

Post by HermitLoon » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:01 pm

Peace

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Marcel Franke
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Re: Why was Jesus Crucified?

Post by Marcel Franke » Fri Jul 09, 2010 6:46 pm

""Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them.
Are you not of more value than they?"

They killed him because He was a rebel in the eyes of society.
---ooOoo---

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