"Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

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snowheight
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"Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by snowheight » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:06 pm

The concept of an "Enlightened" individual is an expression of a judgment of that individual but who makes that judgment and on what basis?

Who am I to even raise this question?

Who are You to even consider it?
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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rachMiel
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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by rachMiel » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:23 pm

There is no I.
There is no you.
There is no enlightenment.

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Kutso
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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by Kutso » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:05 pm

There seem to be individuals having the concept of enlightenment. Who am 'I' to consider it? Who am 'I', is indeed the best of questions to ask.
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Sighclone
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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by Sighclone » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:16 pm

Eckhart knows of his life before his shift and his life now. He knows they are different. The difference is that "before" enlightenment there was a complex belief in "Ulrich Tolle, person." After enightenment, that belief was exposed as a fiction. The word "enlightenment" has been around and was the best one he could use...he also uses "shifted." He can judge for himself the extent of his change.

Words and concepts, like "enlightenment", etc. are products of the mind...and used to communicate, individual mind to individual mind. This whole forum presupposes minds. Truth has to leak in around the edges.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Kutso
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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by Kutso » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:09 pm

Andy is right. Change has only occurred in the mind. The mind no longer has certain beliefs. This change we call enlightenment. True being, however, has always remained changeless.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

mus3cho
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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by mus3cho » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:49 am

rachMiel your post is amazing. It moved me to tears. There's the rose just being. Indifferent to and unaffected by any controversy about whether there is or is not a state of enlightenment. It is just being a rose. It is humbling in it's simple presence.
Last edited by mus3cho on Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

snowheight
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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by snowheight » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:28 am

Thanks everyone for your replies here. Nothing original in the start of the thread, I know, just another restatement of the limitation of language.

Andy the way you broke down the concept in relation to ET appeals to the engineer in me.

I do use the word as a shorthand when conversing nowadays, especially while trying to determine if someone is familiar with these concepts, but the judgmental nature of the idea of an enlightened or un-enlightened person (yes Ananda, I assure You that there are PEOPLE ! :lol: :lol: :lol: (...ok, I know that that is not QUITE true ... :lol: :lol: :lol: )) is a delightful reminder of the also-recursive phenomenon of false individuality ("I think therefore I am...") that I first read in Goswami, and the post was based on that connection.

The rendering of the words is obviously inspired by Kutso's style of brutal attention to self-inquiry.

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Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by Sighclone » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:01 pm

I am behind in my book reviews -- the two recent texts I've finished reading which are science-based, brilliant and very affirming of "nonlocal consciousness" are "Consciousness Beyond Life" written in 2001 by Pim van Lommel, MD and only translated from Dutch into English this year, is splendid. It covers far more than the primary topic of near-death experiences. Do not wait for my longer comments -- buy it today.

The other, equally compelling is "Buddha's Brain" by Hanson and Mendius, (2008) equally well documented and stunning. I will be writing reviews and publishing them here and probably elsewhere.

There is a big big big wheel turning.


Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by mus3cho » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:29 pm

Thank you sighclone/Andy for the recommendations. I have been anticipating being pointed to some new reading. Ever since I have been reading ET's books I have had a hard time being enticed into reading other books. I said it before in a post elsewhere in this forum. I used to absolutely love going in to bookstores but now I walk right by.

I'll look into obtaining those recommendations. :P

Thanks again.

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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by Sighclone » Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:45 pm

These are science-based, and not really directed towards helping anyone awaken...but they surely put the conventional view of "reality" into question!

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by mus3cho » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:15 pm

That's cool. I believe once the seed of awakening has sprouted it only needs to be held in awareness and nurtured. I've always been good with plants. :wink: :lol:

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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by mus3cho » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:04 am

Lately Ihave been posting from my "smart phone" and I have only the patience to type in brief "twitter-like" responses. So I wanted to take the time to sit at the computer keyboard and post a more thoughtful response to the recommendation of one of the titles from sighclone/Andy.

I googled "Continuity of Consciousness" and the first page at http://www.iands.org/research/important ... sness.html
had a sentence that fits very nicely into this forum topic. He stated:
The subjective nature and absence of a frame of reference for this experience lead to individual, cultural, and religious factors determining the vocabulary used to describe and interpret the experience
.

Effective communication via the written word is extremely challenging. Not an original idea, I am aware, and just because it's a given doesn't mean it can't be done, but there has to be a lot of give and take on the part of those agreeing to communicate to hammer out clarity.

The most amazing thing is when you know that what you have tried to convey is recieved and really understood by the reciever. Not agreed with or adopted, just understood.
So, I am looking forward to reading the book in it's entirety because Dr. van Lommel seems adept at conveying his point.
Language is clunky at times, but it's what we have to work with.

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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by Sighclone » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:17 am

von Lommel says as much in his book re language.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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rachMiel
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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by rachMiel » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:21 am

mus3cho wrote:rachMiel your post is amazing. It moved me to tears. There's the rose just being. Indifferent to and unaffected by any controversy about whether there is or is not a state of enlightenment. It is just being a rose. It is humbling in it's simple presence.
I remember when I first "discovered" roses. I was walking from my little student garret to town when I lived in Germany, it was spring, and I passed by a rose bush sticking out of a fence in front of an imposing German house. The deep red color of the roses caught my eye and the phrase "Stop to smell the roses" went through my head. So I stopped, leaned in and took a good long sniff. It was amazing, intoxicating. And I'd never done it before! I fell in love ... am still in love. :-)
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Re: "Enlightment" is a Recursive Failure of Language

Post by mus3cho » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:13 am

My most favorite job ever was in a flower stand. That was over 16 years ago. I was surrounded by many different kinds of flowers, including roses, carnations, and lilies. One of my most vivid memories of that time was opening the door to go in first thing in the morning. There is something extremely intoxicating about the smell of flowers.

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