Free Will

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karmarider
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Re: Free Will

Post by karmarider » Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:03 am

alex wrote:Well all this convo is a little above me but I think the the more conscious the freer the will no? People still enslaved to mind are kind of just dragged along by it arent they? But from presence you can truly choose what you want to do, drive that little brain that makes it all happen.
Awake is certainly easier and flowing than asleep....but whether the awake have free will is a separate question. We can even say that awakening is about dissolving the sense of "me." When we realize there is no executive "I" running the show, the question of free will becomes irrelevant.

Which begs the question, if that's the case, why did I even start this thread?

Well, I had no choice in it, did I? :D

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Re: Free Will

Post by great2be » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:48 pm

karmarider wrote: When we realize there is no executive "I" running the show, the question of free will becomes irrelevant.
Hi karmarider...In your interview linked from your blog you state that you're half awake, yet your statement above gives no impression of that.
Illusions can be born from making statements that do not originate from insight.
alex wrote:Well all this convo is a little above me but I think the the more conscious the freer the will no? People still enslaved to mind are kind of just dragged along by it arent they? But from presence you can truly choose what you want to do, drive that little brain that makes it all happen.
There are infinite levels of presence.... akin to little chinks of sunlight all the way to a fully clear sky.
The level of free will is directly related to the level of presence.
An imaginary seeker, seeking an imaginary goal.
Realise the nature of imagination and the fallacious effort ends.

Have you ever seen a dog chasing it's tail?

What happens when the dog runs faster?

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Re: Free Will

Post by Webwanderer » Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:20 pm

great2be wrote:
karmarider wrote: When we realize there is no executive "I" running the show, the question of free will becomes irrelevant.
Hi karmarider...In your interview linked from your blog you state that you're half awake, yet your statement above gives no impression of that.
Illusions can be born from making statements that do not originate from insight.
I agree with your take that illusions can be born from statements not originating from direct insight. But curiously, why do you use a quote in your signature line? It's an excellent quote, but I sense you have your own direct insight on this. If a truth is revealed, does it matter who points it out?

WW

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great2be
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Re: Free Will

Post by great2be » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:53 pm

Webwanderer wrote:I agree with your take that illusions can be born from statements not originating from direct insight. But curiously, why do you use a quote in your signature line? It's an excellent quote, but I sense you have your own direct insight on this.
I use this quote from Buddha because it is an excellent quote, (although most people don't see the deep truth in it). I could write something similar, but I'm guessing that the fact that it (allegedly) comes from the Buddha, might encourage people to take it more seriously.
It's actually central to the emergence of insight and it's importance cannot be stressed enough. Having it as a signature keeps that reminder there for all to see in all my posts. (It could be more powerful if there was also a concise wording as to why this is such a valuable quote, but there is a character limit to signatures).
If a truth is revealed, does it matter who points it out?
There is a saying that goes "a truth repeated is a lie".
The meaning of that may not be too obvious for some.
More simply put would be 'a truth repeated can become a belief'.
As most people are not discriminating all thoughts/ideas that they encounter, it is very easy for a truth repeated to become a belief.
It is also very easy for a lie repeated to become a belief for the same reasons!
As soon as one operates from belief then true enquiry ceases!
And it is only through true enquiry (moving from observable fact to observable fact) that insight is possible.

I have yet to find a group of people or a forum where there is a culture of not repeating the teachings of another. It requires what one could call radical honesty.
To repeat is so easy, take the Oprah webinars for example. Did you notice how many times Oprah said "I got it, I got it!". Many, many times all she really got was the logical meaning of the words, meaning that none of the words used were confusing to her, and the sentence structure was logical. Insight is not that!

Thank you for your questions, it has enabled me to address probably the greatest shortcoming of this (or any) forum.
An imaginary seeker, seeking an imaginary goal.
Realise the nature of imagination and the fallacious effort ends.

Have you ever seen a dog chasing it's tail?

What happens when the dog runs faster?

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Re: Free Will

Post by gen6 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:39 pm

and it is only through true enquiry (moving from observable fact to observable fact) that insight is possible.
Yes g2b, this is how science works right? :D This is the most important skill that the majority of people should develop to a high level, unfortunately it's the hardest one to develop(that explains the lack of it). Otherwise your brain is just autopilotting with whatever it got so far, whatever went inside it, whatever when into the,,this is real,, zone of the brain. It's very important to have a nice filter for what gets inside your head, very nice filter, we can create filter by thinking about it consciously, by questioning.Questions, questions, questions, that's the most important thing. It's not a shame to question even the simplest things, this is how you get to really realize something, this is how you get to expand your conscious zone.
Don't forget what the genius Carl Jung said who I completely agree with it -
,, Our task in life is to become conscious of the contents that press upward from the unconscious - to create more and more consciousness,,
I can add that more consciousness means more control and power over yourself(and not only)...and the more the better, if you could have great control over yourself, wouldn't you just be happy all the time and be the most useful person for the humanity? :D Great control also means faster expansion of your let's call it ,,mind,, , you become more intelligent, you become more effective, you just update ever single flaw in your brain.
You get control over something when you realize how it works and where it comes from, so you can stop it or use it more etc. You can gain control by getting to the bottom of the things, logic needed of course and the above mentioned method said by g2b also.
Last edited by gen6 on Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Free Will

Post by runstrails » Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:27 pm

I have yet to find a group of people or a forum where there is a culture of not repeating the teachings of another.
I disagree with this. I find that people on this forum have a wide variety of different teachings, different styles and different points of view (including yourself g2be!). They don't always agree with each other and I find that refreshing (and learn a lot from it). Yet, for the most part there is respect, compassion and the understanding that most of us are at different parts of the journey. Perhaps you mistake this compassion for agreement. All great teachers (from the Buddha to Ramana) can be identified by their compassion. Our true nature is bliss (and consequently compassion). It's easy to differentiate the posts that come from a 'spiritualized ego' and those that come from a joyous and compassionate realization of the truth. And that's perfectly fine too----we can learn from that contrast as well. Thanks for being a forum member g2be--I do enjoy your posts.

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Re: Free Will

Post by karmarider » Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:39 pm

g2be, I actually agree with most of what you said. The stuff about "a truth repeated is a lie" is ironic, because everything you've said has already been said. And yet, it has validity. I agree with most things you said with the notable exception of the over-wrought concern about others' level of awakening and shortcomings. Adyashanti and Mckenna speak to this much more skillfully than I can--it seems to be a curious quirk of the ego's enthrallment with awakening. I leave that to the masters, but in service to "radical honesty" I can say I have experience with it. It can be observed. And let go of.

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Re: Free Will

Post by karmarider » Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:40 pm

Well said, runstrails. I find this forum very useful. And compassionate and respectful.

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Re: Free Will

Post by karmarider » Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:43 pm

gen6 wrote:...this is how science works right? :D This is the most important skill that the majority of people should develop to a high level, unfortunately it's the hardest one to develop(that explains the lack of it)...
Science is definitely supposed to work this way. I give science a lot of credit for breaking assumptions over the last few centuries. I think there is hope in science, that with a pardidgm shift, it can be completely consistent with awakening. And vice versa.

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Re: Free Will

Post by Sighclone » Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:40 pm

Well all this convo is a little above me but I think the the more conscious the freer the will no? People still enslaved to mind are kind of just dragged along by it arent they? But from presence you can truly choose what you want to do, drive that little brain that makes it all happen.
alex -

Very interesting observation! Given that in some, perhaps illusory way, we actually make choices, you are suggesting that more awake people make choices which are less constrained by conditioning.

Just as a speculation, perhaps there are "levels of enlightenment" and that the "more enlightened" one is, the less there is an appearance of choice. Ramana said "Everything is predetermined," according to Gary Weber who is very meticulous in his research. Of course, Ramana spent ten years in a cave before they brushed off the bugs and he emerged...and he spoke at length about the varieties of nirvikalpa samahdi and other "states."

And Jac O'Keeffe titled her book "Born to be Free."

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Free Will

Post by James » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:15 pm

While I love science, scientific experiments of this type, and reasoning, it can only take one so far in terms of awakening; in fact the reasoning/logical mind with its constant questioning and complex analysis and descriptions, can delay awakening. Higher truth or wisdom is beyond mind, it is an intuitive capacity that is very different then acquired knowledge of the intellect. Wisdom is pure simplicity. Wisdom is not acquired, it flows through one when there is openness and receptiveness; that has been my experience. The reasoning mind does have a role to play in awakening, (aside from all the practical things it can do); but mostly in deconstructing the built up mind concepts, but that really only brings us to the threshold of awakening, it can't take us into it. It's like the jumping off point... What happens then is by Grace. In the absolute sense it is all by Grace.

As far as free will or not, I don't see it as an either or answer, both are true at the same time, it's one of those debates that has been going on for centuries.

Being versus Becoming, Ego vs. No Ego, Choice vs. No Choice (free will vs. no free will), Form vs. Emptiness, Doer vs. No Doer. The mind thinks it can't be both or all at the same time, because it's not logical. But Life is paradoxically mysterious and embraces and displays as the entire infinite spectrum of potentiality, and possibilities.
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: Free Will

Post by karmarider » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:29 pm

James wrote:...As far as free will or not, I don't see it as an either or answer, both are true at the same time, it's one of those debates that has been going on for centuries.
Nicely put.

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Re: Free Will

Post by Sighclone » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:42 pm

Here's a comment that should be on the home page of this forum... :) (thence followed by 100,000 well-thought-out posts!!)
While I love science, scientific experiments of this type, and reasoning, it can only take one so far in terms of awakening; in fact the reasoning/logical mind with its constant questioning and complex analysis and descriptions, can delay awakening. Higher truth or wisdom is beyond mind, it is an intuitive capacity that is very different then acquired knowledge of the intellect. Wisdom is pure simplicity. Wisdom is not acquired, it flows through one when there is openness and receptiveness; that has been my experience. The reasoning mind does have a role to play in awakening, (aside from all the practical things it can do); but mostly in deconstructing the built up mind concepts, but that really only brings us to the threshold of awakening, it can't take us into it. It's like the jumping off point... What happens then is by Grace. In the absolute sense it is all by Grace.
Thanks, James....

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Free Will

Post by arel » Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:10 am

This discussion of free will is an intellectual exercise. I am convinced none of the mental constructs is an absolute truth. There are currently challenges to Newtonian law of gravity. Einstein, the great mind of our time, died trying to figure out the theory of everything. There is no such thing. He probably laid there at the end, with his funny hair, smiling at how he is trying to figure it out. Then he got comfortable and it came to him at the end :) Same with free will. There is no one answer, it's a matter of perspective. But this forum is for pointers in a certain direction, so it's not accidental why we discuss free will here..

What is free will? Isn't it freedom of movement of attention? So does attention follow the human experience or vice verse? I would argue that since birth attention follows the human experience of the world. So what is the ultimate test of free will? I think if somebody told me that they can consciously withdraw attention from the world and then be back into the world I would say there is free will. If they can go consciously into deep sleep and back. I do not see how that is possible and therefore my view is there is no free will. :)
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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Re: Free Will

Post by James » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:28 am

Thanks Andy, Karmarider.

Much of what we consider control of our lives is pretend or imaginary, although we are convinced otherwise, but it's not obvious until there is awakening. The most meaningful choice we can make is to awaken.
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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