Clarity and Illusion

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Sighclone
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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Sighclone » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:19 am

Guys (maybe, "girls??" ) ... I have to take a break for a few weeks. so this will be my last post here for a while.

If I am a puzzle, that is what it is. I have long deep moments of clarity, and then little burbles of ego, which persist. I'm sure I have never declared here that "I am enlightened." if someone wants to grind throu 4,000+ posts and find one which says "I am enlightened," be my guest. I will deny it. I have had a kensho, a satori, which was that early post -- when I really did not know what had happened. Now, years later, I have a much better perspective on that "glimpse." It was great and now it's over.

I still believe that the ego is a powerful force in many lives, and that simply the intellectual understanding that it is an illusion is not enough to enlighten most people, and banish it to the dustpile of other discarded illusions. I hope great2be will help all of us awaken fully...but the simple announcement, by anyone, of the illusory nature of the ego is not a substitute for other spiritual work, in my opinion (which many share.)

There has been a lot of finger-pointing in this thread -- some have been energized by that, and it could go on forever. I'm not completely innocent, although I think I have been quite patient. One man's meat is another's poison.

Please try to stay on topic and not split hairs about who is attacking whom, and to what degree. I'm through posting in this thread, and will ask WebWanderer to take over moderation (of this thread.) I apologize to anyone I have offended -- it was not my intention to offend anyone, just to state whatever modicum of truth I could dig up.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Webwanderer » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:12 pm

Wow. I haven't been following this thread until asked to do so by Andy.

I would only ask: Can we not do better in our interaction with each other? Upon review of this thread I can see many fair points made by most all contributors. But being right is not the only thing that matters. What value is proving our rightness if we destroy our relationships in the process? Honest exploration of truth is an investment of the highest order. Let's be mindful of the Essence we seek at the heart of that exploration.

I feel we owe each other our deepest respect for the courage and willingness to put life as we know it at risk to explore what most of the world would tell us is nonsense. It's only the end game of greater awareness that makes the journey worthwhile, and until it's reached to a degree of at least minimal awakening, this path often holds more suffering than joy.

Please, consider the character of this thread and what each of us has brought to it. Is this how we want to explore our true nature? Is this expressive of who/what we truly are?

WW

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by James » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:49 pm

Well said WW, I especially resonated with this part:
I feel we owe each other our deepest respect for the courage and willingness to put life as we know it at risk to explore what most of the world would tell us is nonsense
I'll add something I posted earlier in another thread:

In our typical view of life, what we perceive of this ultimate reality is only a small facet, like looking at one facet of a cut diamond. That is why there tends to be many interpretations of what reality is. Each individual has a unique perspective or view of the one reality, because they are looking at a certain facet, so for them that is truth; and that often leads to disagreements about what is true, because another person is looking at a different facet, when actually the truth includes all these various perspectives or facets. Now if one broadens their perspective, zooms out, they may see a glimpse of this expanded view of reality. This is how we move beyond duality into all inclusiveness.
-
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by arel » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:34 am

Nicely said James, I feel the same way.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by great2be » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:27 am

Quinn wrote:great2be
What the hell is your intention here? (Please note irritation). Delivery of the truth? By trying to discredit another forum member's credibility? How does that do anything except glaringly show how attached you are to your beliefs?
Self deception is the greatest hindrance to full awakening.
The problem being that until awake, we are insecure, and that insecurity seeks comfort wherever it can be found - illusory or otherwise.

Sighclone repeatedly worded his posts as if from a fully enlightened place.
He repeatedly gave advice as if it was from there, he also argued against what he could not see to be false, because he had a belief which was in conflict with what was being said, all the time writing with conviction and confidence.

Jut a few posts ago, I stated that he was not free
great2be wrote:Enlightenment is living without a false self.
Your flawed understanding of how that false self came about shows that you yourself are not free.
and his response......
Sighclone wrote:Just because I suggested a bio/sociological theory regarding the source of the illusion of an egoic self, I am not free?
It gave me no pleasure to unmask him as I did, but it was apparent that he was unable to see/admit his his own self deception.

=================================================================================================

And now I turn my attention to you James.
Just recently you posted the following comments.... their meaning is commonplace in your posts
James wrote:We could call it Discernment, Intuition or Realization, until you actually experience that Direct Realization, your mind will be doubtful and continue to raise objections.
and
James wrote:It's kind of like the default setting that we automatically revert to when we are not completely awake.
So twice in one thread, and frequent in your writings, you make statements as if you know the realised state.
Could you please clarify whether these are just beliefs, or indeed statements made from direct realisation?
An imaginary seeker, seeking an imaginary goal.
Realise the nature of imagination and the fallacious effort ends.

Have you ever seen a dog chasing it's tail?

What happens when the dog runs faster?

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Kutso » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:41 am

great2be wrote:Sighclone repeatedly worded his posts as if from a fully enlightened place.
You do that as well.
great2be wrote:So twice in one thread, and frequent in your writings, you make statements as if you know the realised state.
Could you please clarify whether these are just beliefs, or indeed statements made from direct realisation?
I quote you from the very thread you just wrote this in:
great2be wrote:Self deception is the greatest hindrance to full awakening.
The problem being that until awake, we are insecure, and that insecurity seeks comfort wherever it can be found - illusory or otherwise.
So, I ask you the very same question. Could you please clarify whether these are just beliefs, or indeed statements made from direct realisation?
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Quinn » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:37 pm

great2be wrote:It gave me no pleasure to unmask him as I did, but it was apparent that he was unable to see/admit his his own self deception
Well, I thank you for explaining. You are pointing out where you see self-deception in an attempt to help.

In my opinion, there are a couple of flaws in doing that. It is looking at others in an attempt to "fix" what is wrong. If someone asks, "Where am I deluding myself?", we can make some suggestions where to look. But we can't really know. And no one asked that question.

The other flaw is that we are approaching someone with the attitude of, 'I see something broken in you that needs fixing'. It's a message we get constantly from the media, friends and family. It's a message I used to unwittingly give my children. It not only doesn't help, but it adds another layer to their already distorted view.

I apologize to you for the tone of my earlier post. Apparently I have a hot button about this.

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Webwanderer » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:24 pm

great2be wrote:
It gave me no pleasure to unmask him as I did, but it was apparent that he was unable to see/admit his his own self deception
And whether you see it or not, it seems your efforts to unmask others is a double edge sword.

Your attack on James, to unmask him as well I assume, reveals far more about you than about him. James has a large body of contributions to this forum, and while his every word may not come from direct realization at the moment of writing, there is little doubt the bulk of what he writes is born of it. How would one know? By taking his, or anyone's pointers and get one's own direct sense of them. Quality pointers feel alive and energetic. They are expansive. They awaken consciousness to greater realization and reveal one's own direct insight.

The pointers you make may well be true, but they feel like iron. While they may be structurally true they are inflexible to natural human variability. They feel intellectual and lack the warmth of love so prevalent in genuine insight.

Please consider modifying your approach to this forum by offering insights into your own awakening rather than pointing to what you see as other's shortcomings. Offer encouragement rather than criticism.

Consider why you have come to this forum. Is the nature of the dialog in this thread how you want things to go. It's evident that you can push people's buttons in a negative way, can you also push them in a more positive one? Can you make others feel appreciative of the insight you offer? Do you feel a genuine love and compassion for the members of this forum? If not, could there yet be more for you to see?

WW

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Kutso » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:43 pm

Very good WW. I particularly liked the part about pushing buttons in a positive way. That really coincides with what I try to do all the time.
Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that. Not that.

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by gen6 » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:02 pm

Kutso wrote:Very good WW. I particularly liked the part about pushing buttons in a positive way. That really coincides with what I try to do all the time.
yeah, yeah, way to go, I totally feel you!
Very good. Please allow me to point out another similarity. Both you and great2be are jackasses
I guess you're just on the verge of succeeding! :lol: :lol: :wink: Give it a final push :lol:
Live as if nothing and everything matters at the same time.

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by great2be » Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:24 pm

    It's interesting that you should call it an attack on James.
    It wasn't an attack on Sighclone either. It just became clear that he was unable/unwilling to admit his own self deception, so I made it clear. Why is that considered an attack?
    As for James, all I've done is to ask him to clarify his position, I reserve further comment until he's been allowed some time to respond.

    This matter of awakening is a very serious affair.
    The world is a mess of increasing poverty, war and environmental destruction all born from selfishness due to an error of perception.
    Very few are even willing to take a look to see what the root cause is, let alone have the energy and determination to resolve it within themselves.
    And it is only through a significant number of people resolving this error in perception for themselves, that humanity has any possibility of turning around.
    ET and Oprah have created an unprecedented interest in these matters. It is a tragedy that those who have a serious interest are being misguided by Moderators and other senior posters who mis-represent the truth.
    And it is a mis-representation to make pronouncements as if they come from a place of insightful authority, when in fact they are only beliefs.

    The difficulty with all this is that many who make these mis-representations do not themselves see what they are doing, and if it is pointed out they become either defensive or aggressive. You can see Sighclone's response above, and you may recall recently, a regular poster (after making public his lack of awakening) became hostile when I pointed out that he was making statements as if from a place of insightful authority.

    Awakening is a subtle matter, and unless one is scrupulous with the truth, illusion is waiting at every corner.
    If you were a surgeon performing delicate surgery, would you accept statements from your assistants that were presented as factual when in reality they were only beliefs, guesses and hunches?
    Why is there this resistance to clinical honesty here?
    An imaginary seeker, seeking an imaginary goal.
    Realise the nature of imagination and the fallacious effort ends.

    Have you ever seen a dog chasing it's tail?

    What happens when the dog runs faster?

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    Re: Clarity and Illusion

    Post by Tara » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:05 pm

    From someone who visits regularly I glean so much from this forum. Yes sometimes I "think" I can tell if someone is new and someone has more insight..but as pointed out quite often should we not experience this ourselves? Not take someone's word for it? Check it out? Not judge?

    But who are we to judge? From "posts" how can you tell the following is true?? " It is a tragedy that those who have a serious interest are being misguided by Moderators and other senior posters who mis-represent the truth."

    Styles of writing and ways of explaining vary from personality to personality..at least that is what I see..and some resonate with me, some are over my head, but it is all communication and so long as we are not latching onto a moderator or poster as we might, if we were following a man's word and following him all the way to drink kool-aid..lol.

    What I am trying to say is for me I "get" something out of direct approaches such as Kutso and I "get" something out of more comforting, explaining, pointer approaches too.

    Enlightened or not does it matter? Should it matter to "me?' Am I or you the one to say whether someone is enlightened or not?
    And yes I am probably adding judgement as well :wink:
    It can be hard to write what one means in words on a forum..let alone trying to convey enlightenment, oneness etc.

    Tara
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    Re: Clarity and Illusion

    Post by Tara » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:11 pm

    funny just read this from Scott Kiloby:

    "The thought, "I have no clue what enlightenment is," is as valid as the thought, "I know exactly what enlightenment is." When both are seen to be equal arisings that come and go, what else is there to know, be, understand, or do? If you want to suffer, pick one and follow it, tell a story about it, etc. And when the suffering falls away, see that the suffering is an equal arising also."

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    Re: Clarity and Illusion

    Post by Quinn » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:12 pm

    great2be wrote:If you were a surgeon performing delicate surgery, would you accept statements from your assistants that were presented as factual when in reality they were only beliefs, guesses and hunches?
    Yes. If we're all performing surgery on ourselves, we are in this forum to ask the assistants' advice. I would prefer the assistants who are open and listening, rather than the ones who can't hear because they already know the answers.

    And now I leave this thread.

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    Re: Clarity and Illusion

    Post by Webwanderer » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:13 pm

    gen6 wrote:
    Kutso wrote:Very good WW. I particularly liked the part about pushing buttons in a positive way. That really coincides with what I try to do all the time.
    yeah, yeah, way to go, I totally feel you!
    Very good. Please allow me to point out another similarity. Both you and great2be are jackasses
    I guess you're just on the verge of succeeding! :lol: :lol: :wink: Give it a final push :lol:
    Do you feel like "gotcha" posts are all that helpful? To what does it appeal to most?

    There is an opportunity here to get beyond the contentious dialog engaged in earlier in this thread. Kutso appears to have taken it to heart. Will you join us in raising the bar on our interaction?

    WW

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