Clarity and Illusion

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Quinn
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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Quinn » Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:12 pm

arel wrote: People expressing their point of views and unique experiences as if they are universal truths. I believe absolutely nothing we can talk about is an absolute truth.
I mostly agree arel, although it doesn't bother me. I think it comes with the territory. When we feel we have uncovered an 'absolute truth', we're going to speak about it as if, well, it's the absolute truth. :)

I think we come to a certain revelation and it's SO illuminating and SO helpful that we think "This is it!" Until we find out that, oops, no that wasn't it. Happens enough times, and we learn to say..."Well, I think this is it, from my perspective, so far." I have a lot of "oops" posted in various places.

Are there absolute truths that can be talked about? I don't know. I suspect there are. But they don't need to be argued, for sure.

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Sighclone » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:35 am

I remember a couple of years ago when our member eputkonen announced that he was enlightened. I tore into him like a banshee, pointing at what I saw as egoic pronouncements on his website, in his posts, etc. I was pretty sure that enlightenment was so lofty that I'd never actually chat with some one who was "there."

Assigning the ego to the pile of illusions like "living happily ever after," and the tooth fairy, and then declaring that all psychological problems are solved flies in the face of the clinical experience of a number of psychotherapists who are deeply and personally familiar with nonduality and "what remains" after awakening. The fine CD by Adya and Loch Kelly "The Journey After Awakening" discusses this also. My way of expressing both my experience and observation of others is that what was previously labelled "the ego" becomes "the persona" or "the personality." The key is that the collection of habits, quirks, preferences, autopilot responses, frustrations, and memories we oversimplify by naming as "the ego" is no longer the source of our identity. But all that stuff hangs around, including unresolved differences with your sister, unconscious behaviors learned in infancy from your Dad, family and cultural scripts, and perhaps some autopilot "games people play" still have some energy. They just don't drive the boat.

If I've said I'm free of ego, what I meant to say is that I'm aware enough to see it surface and let its appearance either manifest or dissolve. Nisargadatta used to get pissed off a couple of times a day. The early videos of Leonard Jacobsen seem to have a lot of ego in them, to me.

"Spiritual bypassing" is using our spiritual experiences as an excuse for neglecting our life and responsibilities in form -- it's a pretty common event.
When that is seen, all psychological problems are solved.
This is a pretty bold statement and certainly flies in the face of the experiences of the nondual psychotherapists at the Nondual Wisdom and Psychotherapy Institute here: http://wisdompsy.vpweb.com/

I'd like to see more support for this, particularly your personal experiences, great2be...

Regarding your question:
Why wouldn't you just ellucidate the truth as you were best able to?
I try to do this in every post I write. I'm not perfect, and sometimes there is evolution and change in what I find to be the truth. There might also be paradox. I can say that a mirage "looks silvery" even though it is an illusion.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce

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great2be
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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by great2be » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:54 am

Kutso wrote:
great2be wrote:I also point out when people are right - no-one seems to have a problem with that - what's the difference?
The difference is that people seem to have a problem with you pointing out that they are wrong.
And that's very illuminating, isn't it?
Look, if you challenge something I say by pointing out any perceived error, then all I do is look to see the truth or falseness of what you're saying.
What you're saying is either true, or false, or I don't understand what you're saying and I ask for clarification. Why should I have a problem with any of that?
If someone does have a problem, then it highlights the fact that they are attached to what they are saying, and that will give clues as to where they are deluded.

One of Byron Katie's turnarounds is "I look foward to........", e.g. I look foward to getting upset when you disagree with me.
The reason to look foward, is that it gives the honest lover of truth an opportunity to see where they are stuck.

Kutso wrote:
Kutso wrote:But really, there is no "right" and "wrong".
great2be wrote:So is this statement true or false?
You tell me. You are the one prone to pointing out those sort of things.
Does that mean you don't know, or are you playing hard to get?

Kutso, if you look back on your posts, you'll find that you frequently point out your perceived errors in other's thinking.
That means that you also write what you consider to be true. Are you not aware of this?
arel wrote:People expressing their point of views and unique experiences as if they are universal truths. I believe absolutely nothing we can talk about is an absolute truth.
Hope you don't mind me pointing this out arel, but this is an absolutist statement isn't it?
Plus for good measure you've stated that it's your belief. So you've basically made a belief into something absolute. This is how ideological wars are started!
arel wrote:I would think it would be too obvious on this forum, but I guess not. If everything is stated as a personal point of view, arguments like this would have a fun rather then sore vibe to them, I believe.
But some things are universal truths arel. If I don't see them then it's only opinion, but if there is insight then it's just a reflection of absolute fact!
e.g. Loneliness, fear, anxiety, anger, frustration, hate, jealousy are all psychological disorders caused by errors in thought.
If I don't see how that is true, then it is just an opinion or belief to make that statement. But when one does see exactly how these factors arise then it is true and factual, absolutely!

If this forum was only opinions, then what would be the point of discussion? To trade opinions? To swap opinions? To see who can create the largest group sharing the same opinion?
Discussions that relate to truth are generally fraught with difficulties, but that doesn't mean that it's a pointless endeavour.
An imaginary seeker, seeking an imaginary goal.
Realise the nature of imagination and the fallacious effort ends.

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What happens when the dog runs faster?

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Kutso
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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Kutso » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:36 am

great2be wrote:And that's very illuminating, isn't it?
Not really.
great2be wrote:Does that mean you don't know, or are you playing hard to get?
I do know. I just wanted to hear what you had to say about it. Apparently nothing. Oh, and if you are a guy, I am impossible to get. ;)
great2be wrote:Kutso, if you look back on your posts, you'll find that you frequently point out your perceived errors in other's thinking.
Yeah not so much.
great2be wrote:But some things are universal truths arel.
In that case I invite you to present the universal truths.
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gen6
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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by gen6 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:43 pm

ARGHH. ROAR.

I decided to sharpen my mind a bit and I'll express my personal opinion regarding one little quarrel between G2B and Kutso and may be clear it out :) I'm writing this long, kind of obsolete post because I'm bored at work and have nothing useful to do right now.
You do seem to have a tendency to point out that people are wrong. But really, there is no "right" and "wrong". You know that. Maybe it's time to stop playing superior almighty?
First, this forum is for expressing opinions, if all people had the same view for everything and when somebody shares something all others are like - Yes, I agree, great, same as me in 100% of the cases, no one would be here. What makes is interesting is the different views. Everybody has a view. When you see something that doesn't correspond with your point of view, you share yours and also share why do you think the other person's view is wrong according to you. That's constructive and effective. This is what we should aim for here and everybody does it consciously or unconsciously. Not only here but in real life as well. But especially here, in this forum, we're to express our opinions and do say why do we think the other person is wrong in his view. That's very useful.

Now, Kutso, of course ,,right,, and ,,wrong,, are subjective. The concept of right, wrong is thought by humans and it's useful, very effective in communication, very useful for expressing yourself. It's fact that you have set of beliefs that you consider - Right. It's a fact that when you see an idea that doesn't correspond somehow to your set of beliefs, you try to fit it in(in your set of beliefs), if you can't , this thing is wrong (or eventually it can go to a category - undefined). Otherwise you wouldn't be able to filter information properly and this will cause issues in your brain, you won't be able to think correctly. This happens no matter if you realize it or not, if you say - there is no right no wrong, it still happens.
So denying it ,doesn't make it disappear. But yes, if we look from above, we can say that there is no right and wrong, there are only thoughts generated by a brain. You can even believe that everything is words and there is no right and wrong, but still you believe that this belief that - ,,there is no right and no wrong,, is Right, otherwise you would not say it, so you cannot escape this mechanism even if you want to.
I think it's vague to accuse somebody for having tendency to point out that people are wrong, when this forum is namely for this purpose(as well as expressing personal opinions and agreeing with others). I also think it's vague to put as an argument after that -there is no ,,right,, and ,,wrong,, because it's lacks solidity as I proved already. I also think that when I say, why your post is wrong according to me, I'm not playing superior almighty, this is how you take it because of your ,,ego,,. I'm just expressing opinion. I don't think it's right to think that when you point the mistakes of one, you are trying to make him/her inferior.

I like how G2B succeeded in being cool all the way throughout this discussion, always pointing out facts and trying to be as effective as possible and never showed in his posts that he's influenced by irritation or some aggression or some negative emotion. Can't say this for other users, irritation is clearly expressed at some places, including the Kutso's quote above and his post above mine, Andy also almost kept it cool but at some places irritation is shown as well. I'm not saying humans should be like robots, not to be irritated, but somehow G2B succeeded in that, it's also hard for me do it all the time, but I'm trying.
I speak about irritation so much because, no matter if you realize it or not,irritation influences the quality of the posts you write and the information you serve. When irritated , you are different, your mind is fogged a bit, your posts are different in a negative way. Irritation is a weakness showing helplessness , losing control over something.

Thank you for reading the long kind of obsolete post that doesn't contribute much for the big picture. :)
Last edited by gen6 on Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by great2be » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:24 pm

Sighclone wrote:I remember a couple of years ago when our member eputkonen announced that he was enlightened. I tore into him like a banshee, pointing at what I saw as egoic pronouncements on his website, in his posts, etc. I was pretty sure that enlightenment was so lofty that I'd never actually chat with some one who was "there."
You don't make it clear why you posted this....... but in researching it, it revealed some strange facts.
Your blowup was after you announced to the forum that you had awakened, so how can you state I was pretty sure that enlightenment was so lofty that I'd never actually chat with some one who was "there."??
Here's the timeline for that plus some pertinent others:
Feb 08 start a thread announcing your awakening here
May 08 oh my ego's not dead here
Sept 08 massive outburst at Eric - then apologies for doing so a day or two later here
Nov 08 "Am I enlightened, I don't know" here
Dec 08 making strong statements that imply "I am enlightened" e.g.
"It is the simplest reality, the safest place, the most powerful place, the most surrendered place, the most natural place. It's the stripping of the big curtain, the false security blanket of the mind/body ego, full of scary complexity that makes the final step seem so long and difficult. Looking back through the final gate, you notice that it is not really there. Very damn funny indeed!"
here

Recently you often say that enlightenment includes egoic activity - another falacy that many non-dualists propagate. I've written a piece about that here

To quote ET;
"Ego means self-identification with thinking, to be trapped in thought, which means to have a mental image of "me" based on thought and emotions."
quote

Can you honestly reconcile enlightenment to include self-identification with thinking and to be trapped in thought?

You're a bit of a puzzle Sighclone!
Assigning the ego to the pile of illusions like "living happily ever after," and the tooth fairy, and then declaring that all psychological problems are solved flies in the face of the clinical experience of a number of psychotherapists who are deeply and personally familiar with nonduality and "what remains" after awakening.
It doesn't fly in the face of ET B.Katie or Krishnamurti.
The fine CD by Adya and Loch Kelly "The Journey After Awakening" discusses this also.
I haven't come across this so cannot comment.
My way of expressing both my experience and observation of others is that what was previously labelled "the ego" becomes "the persona" or "the personality." The key is that the collection of habits, quirks, preferences, autopilot responses, frustrations, and memories we oversimplify by naming as "the ego" is no longer the source of our identity. But all that stuff hangs around, including unresolved differences with your sister, unconscious behaviors learned in infancy from your Dad, family and cultural scripts, and perhaps some autopilot "games people play" still have some energy. They just don't drive the boat.
Ego is a conceptual self which when mistaken for reality creates enormous illusions. When there is no conceptual self then personal preferences etc. are of no cause of suffering whatsoever.
Why wouldn't you just ellucidate the truth as you were best able to?
I try to do this in every post I write.

Obviously not every post, which is why I asked you the question as to why you opted for a secondhand theory.
I'm not perfect, and sometimes there is evolution and change in what I find to be the truth.

We can see quite an evolution in the timeline above!
I can say that a mirage "looks silvery" even though it is in illusion.
This works for visual mirages, because the visual is real even if it doesn't represent reality accurately.
The same cannot be said for psychological illusions. They cannot both be seen through and present at one and the same time!
An imaginary seeker, seeking an imaginary goal.
Realise the nature of imagination and the fallacious effort ends.

Have you ever seen a dog chasing it's tail?

What happens when the dog runs faster?

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Quinn » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:44 pm

great2be
What the hell is your intention here? (Please note irritation). Delivery of the truth? By trying to discredit another forum member's credibility? How does that do anything except glaringly show how attached you are to your beliefs?

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Kutso » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:06 pm

gen6 wrote:Text
Very good. :)

I find it quite amusing that both you and great2be seems to think you have the ability to know a persons state of mind just by reading a few lines of text.

Also, you claimed in the thread "Aware of your own awareness" that you've already found what you needed and ain't searching anymore. This would be the kind of thing that would be helpful sharing in this forum. Maybe you could help others that are still searching?
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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by gen6 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:19 pm

Quinn wrote:great2be
What the hell is your intention here? (Please note irritation). Delivery of the truth? By trying to discredit another forum member's credibility? How does that do anything except glaringly show how attached you are to your beliefs?
It seems I'm in a mood to comment attacking posts today. Sorry to be appearing as G2B's lawyer, but I have an internal need to express my opinion about such posts, no matter if G2B is attacked or Sighclone or Kutso.

Quinn, I can ask you the same question? What is your intention by posting this? Please give details.
Expressed this way ,,trying to discredit another forum member's credibility,, it sounds awful, doesn't it? Is he really doing that or just expressing his opinion and showing why does he think that Andy is not right. If you have a better way to express why you don't agree with something please, share, if it's more effective method, I would love to copy it. Or you don't do that? You don't say why you do think someone is not right, you just say - you are not right and quit? I don't think it's a plus for the forum the users to be like that, it's shallow the least. As you see, the discussion has been escalating, the more effective one is with facts and examples the better chance he has to prove his point, which is one reason why we are here for. Andy's doing the same, asking questions, quoting lines of G2B, sharing his thoughts about what G2B says, trying to prove his point also, that's the way it should be done, there's no difference. Now please note that that since you were irritated by G2B's quite effective style for proving his point,you post an attacking post, fogged by irritation. See? That's ineffective.
Kutso wrote:
gen6 wrote:Text
Very good. :)

I find it quite amusing that both you and great2be seems to think you have the ability to know a persons state of mind just by reading a few lines of text.

Also, you claimed in the thread "Aware of your own awareness" that you've already found what you needed and ain't searching anymore. This would be the kind of thing that would be helpful sharing in this forum. Maybe you could help others that are still searching?
Amusing indeed, isn't it :D I'm glad you were able to find some similarities between me and G2b :D I'll take it as a compliment. I don't claim to know what's your state of mind Kutso, I just assume that when you write - F**k off(so to say), you are irritated, logically thinking that there is no point to say F**k off when you're calm and happy - correct me if I'm wrong. Or if you write words that contradict with your mind states, write angry when you're happy, write happy when you're angry, that's odd and needs professional examination.
I ain't searching, does this mean that I have to stop living and my brain to get rusty? It's a great exercise for the brain to write in forum , to judge, to think, to share, many things, it's useful.
Last edited by gen6 on Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:11 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Ralph » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:22 pm

.... sometimes I wonder if great2be and gen6 are the same person. :)

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Quinn » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:32 pm

gen6 wrote: Quinn, I can ask you the same question? What is your intention by posting this? Please give details.
My intention was to show how the use of tactics like digging up old posts shows a real strong need to defend. And what is there to defend, if not a belief structure? So if I say I'm enlightened, why would I need to defend what I have found to be true?

Yes, I know the irritation clouded that. And escalated things. I got creeped out by someone digging up old posts. On the plus side, I haven't been angry in a long time so it was kind of nice to find this particular trigger. It's been hiding out awhile. So maybe there was a secondary motive - to say "Yes" to my anger. Never productive on a forum, so I'm sorry for that.
gen6 wrote:Is he really doing that or just expressing his opinion and showing why does he think that Andy is not right. If you have a better way to express why you don't agree with something please, share, if it's more effective method, I would love to copy it.
G2B was not expressing his opinion of the topic, but his opinion of Andy's credibility. Of course, so was I (about G2B's). So, no..I don't have a better way. :)
Last edited by Quinn on Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Kutso » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:38 pm

Kutso wrote:
great2be wrote:And that's very illuminating, isn't it?
Not really.
great2be wrote:Does that mean you don't know, or are you playing hard to get?
I do know. I just wanted to hear what you had to say about it. Apparently nothing. Oh, and if you are a guy, I am impossible to get. ;)
great2be wrote:Kutso, if you look back on your posts, you'll find that you frequently point out your perceived errors in other's thinking.
Yeah not so much.
great2be wrote:But some things are universal truths arel.
In that case I invite you to present the universal truths.
gen6 wrote: irritation is clearly expressed at some places, including the Kutso's quote above
gen6 wrote: I don't claim to know what's your state of mind Kutso, I just assume that when you write - F**k off(so to say), you are irritated, logically thinking that there is no point to say F**k off when you're calm and happy - correct me if I'm wrong.
No, you are not wrong. But please tell me where you have seen me write "F**k off", as you so eloquently put it. And you say irritation is clearly expressed in my post above, when it is quite clear that it is instead you that misinterpret what I am writing as irritation. I very seldom get irritated, and even less so on internet forums.
gen6 wrote:Amusing indeed, isn't it I'm glad you were able to find some similarities between me and G2b I'll take it as a compliment.
Very good. Please allow me to point out another similarity. Both you and great2be are jackasses. Oh, and that's just an observation, just so you don't misinterpret this as irritation. Have a nice evening.
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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by gen6 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:52 pm

irritation is clearly expressed at some places, including the Kutso's quote above
It means quote, not post, I meant for the quote in my other post about the right and wrong and the almighty superior whatever.

In your post I assumed you are irritated by the style you answered his questions. This is also a sign - ,,Oh, and if you are a guy, I am impossible to get.,,
It shows irritation. Why would you say that otherwise? :lol: It's very provocative! :wink:
Very good. Please allow me to point out another similarity. Both you and great2be are jackasses. Oh, and that's just an observation, just so you don't misinterpret this as irritation. Have a nice evening.
Believe me or not, as soon as I read this, I couldn't stop laughing out loud for at least 30 seconds, the whole office looked at me :lol: :lol:
it's like, you just proved my point how irritated and helpless you are. Aggression is weakness :D :lol: :lol: HAHAHAHA....I just can't stop laughing really. You are proving my point so vividly.Have a nice evening too, mr. KuTsO :lol: :wink:
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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by arel » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:39 pm

Yes wars are started when people believe that what they know is the only truth. Imagine if they knew that what they know is just their point of view.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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Re: Clarity and Illusion

Post by Kutso » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:58 pm

gen6 wrote: In your post I assumed you are irritated by the style you answered his questions. This is also a sign - ,,Oh, and if you are a guy, I am impossible to get.,,
It shows irritation. Why would you say that otherwise?
Yeah, you do do a lot of guessing. Too bad you can't see it yourself. You are so caught up in your own concepts that you only think you know what is true or not, but really... you ain't fooling anyone.
gen6 wrote:Believe me or not, as soon as I read this, I couldn't stop laughing out loud for at least 30 seconds, the whole office looked at me
it's like, you just proved my point how irritated and helpless you are. Aggression is weakness HAHAHAHA....I just can't stop laughing really. You are proving my point so vividly.Have a nice evening too, mr. KuTsO
Look who's irritated now. Or are you? Maybe I'm misinterpreting. :)
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