Eckhart Tolle Discussion Community

RCharles wrote:...Additionally, the ego still comes back and tries its little nefarious tricks to hijack the experience. In many ways, as I said, my ego has been helpful in bringing understanding and balance to the experience. But the ego also tries to get little ego satisfactions, such as "Oh, this is enlightenment! 'I' must be enlightened." Of course, with a new clarity of mind, it's easier to recognize this stuff, and you can return to presence and let go of these little ego thoughts. But the point is they don't go away--you just have more clarity in recognizing and dealing with them because they are such a contrast to the joy of unity.

As another example, the latest ego-happening for me went this way. The joy and fearlessness has brought a new extroversion, and as I mentioned elsewhere, I've been out and about town making new friends. Recently, I had a day at home alone, and it was all I could do not to jump in the car and visit my favorite coffeehouse to be around people. The ego was co-opting the extroversion and turning it into a need! In other words being a "popular extrovert" brought some ego satisfaction that the ego missed when it was not happening.

My higher awareness caught on very quickly and saw that more alone time and more presence were the antidotes to counterbalance the new ego need, but the point is, the ego continues to try to regain control. Maintaining the awakened mind requires a certain vigilance and "self" examination when the ego tries to arise. Perhaps for some there are additional stages where there is less tendency for the ego to return, but that has not yet been my experience.

Other posts in this thread already said most of this, but a lot of it sounded pretty theoretical, so I thought perhaps a real world personal experience might help illustrate what this is like. Hopefully, others will recognize from this that enlightened experiences are not necessarily what we think they are or expect them to be, especially that they do not bring permanent, perfect bliss. They do bring new joy, clarity, and freedom of mind, but they also have to be integrated into a real life and psyche. They also require some "post-experience work" in which we use awareness to defeat the ego's attempts to return and take over.

This is such a common description of ego that it has become a kind of convention, but ego really truly doesn't exist as it is being described here.
Illusions are created when concepts are not seen for what they are, but are instead taken for reality.
Ego is a concept, which is often mistaken as reality.
Each and every thought as it arises is a concept. If any thought slips by that is not recognised for what it is, it can then be mistaken as reality.
As in the case of the concept 'ego' if this concept is not seen for what it is, then the idea of ego being real expands. More and more thoughts are added to this and as they too slip through without discrimination the ego illusion gets more and more reinforced.

For many drawn to 'enlightenment' they actually add to their confusion by attempting in some way or other to trancend/defeat/overcome ego.

It is impossible to act upon what does not exist!

Hopefully, others will recognize from this that enlightened experiences are not necessarily what we think they are or expect them to be, especially that they do not bring permanent, perfect bliss. They do bring new joy, clarity, and freedom of mind, but they also have to be integrated into a real life and psyche.

The enlightened experiences that you refer to are when an aspect of conditioning (which is basically concepts that are accepted as true) is seen through, then some release and clarity is experienced, but until the central one of thought's very nature is seen then it will always be partial, and will be subsumed by other concepts which have not been revealed

True enlightenment is to see clearly, and unless thought is seen clearly each and everytime it arises, then illusion, confusion and suffering follow.



PS. quotes taken from http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth ... 596#p58962

Sorry but have to say I'm with RCharles... my experiences are quite like his. I didnt really understand your post g2b. The ego definitely hooks on to experiences, mine is kind of like a friend I have. I watch her and smile, resting in awareness more and more seems to have let my ego really heals its patches and is much happier too. I like the quote about the fact that you'll never be rid of your ego and to try to do so is silly, its like your shadow.

Well.. to be honest I don't think I care about what is the the truth, what is real or just a concept. I like to simplify things, but that has been a long struggle in my life..I always try to analyze to much. In other areas in life other than spiruality, I have found that true "masters" have the ability to make extremely complicated things seem easy and uncomplicated to "ordinary people". So I listen to ET and love the simple conecpts that points to the truth and help me to get practical results and a better life, even if these concepts not alaways are the "real truth" or how it really works.

alex wrote:Sorry but have to say I'm with RCharles... my experiences are quite like his. I didnt really understand your post g2b. The ego definitely hooks on to experiences, mine is kind of like a friend I have. I watch her and smile, resting in awareness more and more seems to have let my ego really heals its patches and is much happier too. I like the quote about the fact that you'll never be rid of your ego and to try to do so is silly, its like your shadow.

Thinking about myself is another way of saying 'ego'.
Ego doesn't exist independently of thinking about myself.
Thoughts about myself are just that, thoughts/concepts.
When we lose track of this fact, confusion and illusion are created.
Now people have created a new problem, that of my ego!
Unfortunately many well respected 'teachers' teach about dissolving/overcoming/creating a healthy relationship with/transcending ego.
All this creates more and more illusion and confusion.

Any action based on an illusion creates further confusion/illusion.
The traditional tale about the rope being mistaken for a snake illustrates this quite well.
When we accept the idea that it's a snake then a great many new activities can be born. Fear, seeking help from another, finding something to catch the snake, making noise to drive the snake away etc. etc.
All of these are based on an illusion, none of these are necessary, as the snake never existed in the first place.
EXACTLY the same applies to ego.
Many may object, and say "this can't be true, as I really experience the reality of my ego".
The same could also be said of the people rushing around involved in solving the snake problem. The initial acceptance of a false idea creates many repercussions, many of them real world actions..... but these actions are ultimately based on a false original premise.

How many of you can relate to the following?
You think that a particular person has done something antagonistic toward you. You spend the following minutes/hours/days/weeks feeling bothered about it, having antagonistic feelings and thoughts towards them, only to find that you misunderstood the original event.
Byron Katie tells the story about going to use a public toilet and finding the seat (and maybe the floor (it's a long time since I read it)) very wet. She has all manner of negative thoughts about the person who used the toilet before her. When she flushes after her own use she sees the toilet overflow and realises her mistake!

All those feelings and thoughts that follow on from the original mistaken idea are very real. They have real impact on the body in terms of feelings, emotions and thoughts.

As children, no-one showed us the mechanics of thinking. We accepted whatever our culture first presented us with. All the people around us were caught in the process of taking thoughts/ideas as reality. Should's, shouldn'ts, ungrounded fears, announcing how we are going to feel tomorrow, telling us we shouldn't be doing/thinking/feeling this that and the other, the list is virtually endless.
The rest as they say, is history!

hanss wrote:Well.. to be honest I don't think I care about what is the the truth, what is real or just a concept.

OK.
Most people are really only seeking comfort, when one finds that it's not possible to maintain a steady level of comfort then either cynicism kicks in, or the search continues.
Ultimately, only the truth will set you free.

I see a lot of talk about "my ego". I just wanted to point out that this is a bit funny, since the one thinking it owns something is ego itself. Therefor by saying "my ego", ego is saying that it is owning itself.

Ofcourse great2be is right. Concepts is thoughts, and can not describe truth. Which is why all the great masters mainly tought by silence. Sometimes though, and especially in the beginning, concepts might be needed to spark the fire. But ultimately all concepts must be thrown away.

But ultimately all concepts must be thrown away.

Even the concept that all concepts must be thrown away.

heidi wrote:Even the concept that all concepts must be thrown away.

Indeed.

Then it isnt about throwing away or holding on.

But realizing the huge and utter undefinable,
for being the loose foundation,
if only for a moment,
the concepting part is put in its place immediately,
but not in a condemning way at all.

heidi wrote:

But ultimately all concepts must be thrown away.

Even the concept that all concepts must be thrown away.

It's not about throwing away concepts, but seeing them for what they are.
The concept of a board game has a very little significance.
Misplaced concepts in the enquiry into reality will scupper the whole endeavour!

But you are here right now, not ?
What endeavour is needed for that ?

Then why am I telling this ?
I dont know.
But knowing isnt needed either.

Yes, its great 2 be.

great2be wrote:It's not about throwing away concepts, but seeing them for what they are.

Yes, exactly. Concepts. And by seeing them as they are you need to cling to them no more.

Duality or non-duality, what is the truth?

The truth is only what is lived right now by the body reading this.

Memory is self. I am in my self when I reflect on memory. There is subject and object in such a moment which is duality.

Pretending to not be "I" while reflecting on memory is delusion.

Non-duality is only a statement of truth, which becomes a memorable concept, unless lived every moment in the absence of self reflection.

Can duality as self reflection exist in the same moment as non-duality in the body reading these words?

That is the question.

Mouse wrote:Duality or non-duality, what is the truth?

The truth is only what is lived right now by the body reading this.

Memory is self. I am in my self when I reflect on memory. There is subject and object in such a moment which is duality.

Memory is memory
The illusory self is created by unexamined concepts which contain the 'I' thought.

Non-duality is only a statement of truth, which becomes a memorable concept, unless lived every moment in the absence of self reflection

Can duality as self reflection exist in the same moment as non-duality in the body reading these words?

That is the question.

Non-duality is the only reality.
There is never duality only apparent duality.
Here's something I wrote earlier today which may make this clearer for you.

great2be wrote:

The mind thinks it can't be both or all at the same time, because it's not logical.

It can't, this is the true meaning of non-duality!
It can't be dead and alive at the same time
It can't be wet and dry at the same time
It can't be connected and disconnected at the same time
It can't be true and false at the same time

It may appear so to those that don't see clearly enough, and this is how the illusion of duality is created.

But Life is paradoxically mysterious and embraces and displays as the entire infinite spectrum of potentiality, and possibilities.

There are no paradoxes in reality, only in concepts.
All paradoxes are word games not actual reflections of living reality.

Subject and object = duality

Inner space is all there is. Anything that appears in this is self. That may be emotion or sensation, thought or speculation.

This brings about the appearance of awareness. The original state of inner space is pure consciousness or nothing arising. With the arising of something, I arise as the subject and perceive the object, my self or self.

I in this case is extremely subtle, but it is none the less I, the entity, the knower.