Does existence have any meaning?

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din
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Does existence have any meaning?

Post by din » Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:41 pm

:o

Yesterday I had an amazing insight when JedEye posted " you are not a person with awareness, rather you are awareness having the experience of being a person". (not his exact words)


It became so clear what he was saying I actually saw that I am awareness and I saw the layer on top called "the self".


I tried to retrieve that insight today but couldn't. The intelligence that I am would not allow it. It told me that it is old.

Nisargadatta: "The greatest guru is your inner self. Truly he is the supreme teacher. He alone can take you to your goal and he alone meets you at the end of the road. Confide in him and you need no outer guru."
I read a thread yesterday on this site about not being able to be in the moment because of pain. The person who wrote this thread believed he had to not focus on the pain but rather on present moment awareness.


He doesn't realize that he is awareness, so why would he need to focus on himself?


Because he believes the story of "becoming", of ET's pointers that you should focus on present moment awareness. But he doesn't realize that these pointers are only useful up to the point where you know yourself as awareness. After that, why would you NEED to do anything???


Also the physical body itself is a manifestation that gives credence to the "story". Without the physical body, the "story" would not hold up. (as a separate self)


But what is the physical body?


Is it really what it seems to be?


And when you have pain, is it really pain?


Isn't pain just a "meaning" attached to a ripple on the surface of being.


What gives meaning to this existence?


Isn't it the story?


Does present moment awareness have any meaning attached to it?


Does the "isness" of the present moment have any meaning attached to it?


Does the "amness" that I am have any meaning attached to it?
:)

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din
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Post by din » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:05 pm

I remember a while back when Anois' ego was hiding in the concept that "he" as consciousness did not create the universe. I wonder if ego is still hiding in this concept or has the concept been let go.

Chelsy posted here that ego dies.

Now, if ego doesn't really exist, is actually just a concept also, then how long will the ego be able to hold out in this concept that it needs to die.

What a beautiful place for a thought to hide out in. In the thought that someday, it will NEED to die.

Ha! Now that's a clever ego/thought!!!
:)

Chelsy
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Post by Chelsy » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:32 pm

What a beautiful place for a thought to hide out in. In the thought that someday, it will NEED to die.

Ha! Now that's a clever ego/thought!!!

Indeed.

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din
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Post by din » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:50 pm

:)

Both of my posts in this thread is about conditioning, about ascribing meaning to what is unfolding.

The question is how deep does conditioning go?

And the answer is all the way!

Absolutely everything that "we" experience is conditioning, even these words that are appearing on this "so called" computer screen that you are "supposedly" reading.

Essentially "the world" that manifests is meaningful to us because of conditioning.

Take an infant. Look thru her eyes. Does anything make sense? Is anything meaningful? The only thing the infant recognizes is it's mother's face. Because that is the one "aware" constant in it's short life. Has conditioning begun already? Does she "know" her mother's face to be separate from herself or does that come later with thinking and verbal skills?

Look at a tree. Can you really see the tree? Or do you see the "concept of tree"?

If you got rid of all concepts, all conditioning, would there really be anything separate from what you are???

Or would everything be "One" ?
:)

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Pierre
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Post by Pierre » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:07 pm

Does existence have a meaning? A purpose?

Please let's observe the facts...

The purpose of Life is to maintain diversity in forms, to increase the chances of sustaining itself under the most extreme conditions.

All life manifestations have basically the same purpose: survive and prosper. This is true of species, herds, families, and individuals.

Instinct drives all living things towards this end, and as animals, all our thoughts and actions are also driven by this purpose.

We can all OBSERVE this, SEE it through direct objective perception. It is SIMPLE.

Now is there anything MORE to it? I.E. "a greater meaning or purpose"?

Maybe there is, and maybe there isn't. Why speculate? If I have not SEEN it, then it has no reality (for me).

We're asking:
- Is the physical body what it seems to be?
- Is pain real?
- How about isness, amness?

Isn't this the mind going wild? Asking questions in a loop to feed it?

Maybe we're asking all these questions because we're trying to understand what xyz has said. We're confused with contradictory "knowledge", and trying to make sense out of it.

Mind is a great assistant, but a terrible master.

Please let's keep it SIMPLE: let's just LOOK and FIND OUT for ourselves, and FORGET every external information that does not resonate from within!

Data that has not found an echo in our soul is pollution.

Pierre

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Post by Chelsy » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:15 pm

Both of my posts in this thread is about conditioning, about ascribing meaning to what is unfolding.

Yes. How much meaning is being placed on the posts themselves?

Are they meaningful to "you"?

Is there a "you' in them?

Is there meaning behind "there is no meaning"?

Is there story behind "no story"?

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din
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Post by din » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:33 pm

Hi Pierre,

And welcome!

All life manifestations have basically the same purpose: survive and prosper.

Thank you, Mr Spock. :)

Maybe there is, and maybe there isn't. Why speculate? If I have not SEEN it, then it has no reality (for me).
I was not speculating. I was talking about what is seen.

If you have not seen it yet, you will.
:)

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Post by din » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:37 pm

Quote:
Both of my posts in this thread is about conditioning, about ascribing meaning to what is unfolding.




Yes. How much meaning is being placed on the posts themselves?

Are they meaningful to "you"?

Is there a "you' in them?

Is there meaning behind "there is no meaning"?

Is there story behind "no story"?
Chelsy, you're still very clever!!!


Nisargadatta:
"You cannot transcend what you do not know. To go beyond yourself, you must know yourself."
:)

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Pierre
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Post by Pierre » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:45 pm

Hi Din,
If you have not seen it yet, you will.
Maybe I will, and maybe I won't. Why speculate?

Pierre :D :D :D

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Post by Chelsy » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:30 pm

Thank you Din,
but you are always far more clever than
I am. :D


Nisargadatta quotes

"in reality only the Ultimate is.

The rest is a matter of name and form.

And as long as you cling to the idea

that only what has name and shape exists,

the Supreme will appear to you non-existing.

When you understand that names and shapes

are hollow shells without any content whatsoever,

and what is real is nameless and formless,

pure energy of life and light of consciousness,

you will be at peace -- immersed in the deep

silence of reality."

….

"Realization is but the opposite of ignorance.

To take the world as real

and one's self as unreal is ignorance,

the cause of sorrow. To know the self as the

only reality and all else as temporal and transient

is freedom, peace and joy. It is all very simple

instead of seeing things as imagined, learn to see

them as they are. When you can see everything

as it is, you will also see yourself as you are.

It is like cleansing a mirror.

The same mirror that shows you the world as it is,

will also show you your own face.

The thought 'I am' is the polishing cloth. Use it."

….

"Within the prison of your world appears a man

who tells you that the world of

painful contradictions, which you have created,

is neither continuous nor permanent

and is based on a misaprehension.

He pleads with you to get out of it,

by the same way by which you got into it.

You got into it by forgetting what you are

and you will get out of it

by knowing yourself as you are."



"Why not turn away from the experience

to the experiencer and realize the full import

of the only true statement you can make: 'I am'?"




"Just keep in mind the feeling 'I am',

merge in it, till your mind and feeling become one.

By repeated attempts you will stumble on the

right balance of attention and affection

and your mind will be firmly established

in the thought-feeling 'I am'. "



Questioner: "Then what is needed?"

Nisargadatta: "Distrust your mind, and go beyond."

Questioner: "What shall I find beyond the mind?"

Nisargadatta: "The direct experience of being,

knowing and loving."

Questioner: "How does one go beyond the mind?"

Nisargadatta: "There are many starting points -

they all lead to the same goal.

You may begin with selfless work,

abandoning the fruits of action;

you may then give up thinking

and in the end give up all desires.

Here, giving up is the operational factor.

Or you may not bother about anything you want,

or think, or do and just stay put in the

thought and feeling 'I am", focussing 'I am" firmly

in your mind. All kind of experience may come to

you -- remain unmoved in the knowledge that

all perceivable is transient,

and only the 'I am' endures."

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din
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Post by din » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:25 pm

Yes. How much meaning is being placed on the posts themselves?

Are they meaningful to "you"?

Is there a "you' in them?
The posts represent an experience, an insight in the present moment.

As such they are content.

They are not what I am.
And as long as you cling to the idea

that only what has name and shape exists,
This is, in fact, what the above posts were about.

And this also:
When you understand that names and shapes

are hollow shells without any content whatsoever,
And this:
To take the world as real

and one's self as unreal is ignorance,

the cause of sorrow.
This is what I am beginning to see:
When you can see everything

as it is, you will also see yourself as you are.
Thanks for the wonderful quotes Chelsy.

I have to end with this one:
"Why not turn away from the experience

to the experiencer and realize the full import

of the only true statement you can make: 'I am'?"
:)

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din
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Post by din » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:29 pm

Maybe I will, and maybe I won't. Why speculate?
How long are you going to hold on to that thought Pierre?
:)

JedEye
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Post by JedEye » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:39 pm

The most beautiful thing in questions is that they don`t need to be answered. :lol:
I like your questions din. Just reading them.

What gives meaning to this existence?

Then what gives meaning to meaning? :lol:
no more words

weichen
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differentiation of the mind

Post by weichen » Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:24 pm

Does existance has any meaning ?

Pierre wrote:
The purpose of Life is to maintain diversity in forms, to increase the chances of sustaining itself under the most extreme conditions.
I suspect Prerre have strong biology background (same as me). Let me see if I can continue alone the line of diversity: differentiation of the mind

For simplicity sake, I assume that the old mind (undiferentiated mind) can only engage in one format of thinking: pyramid thinking. The tip of the pyramid is the highest value of life (i.e. meaning of existance), it can contain more than one value. With the ultimate goals clarified, mind can effectively proceed its thinking in deciding what to do at any moment. For each mid pyramid component, the mind can assign quantitative importance to it based on past conditioning how they affect the tip of the pyramid (just like the chess program).

When we are young, we thought money, power, health, longevity, entertainment, sex, children, and "true" love from the opposite sex are at the tip of the pyramid. Later on, while we may still think highly of these material things, we got disillusioned that these things are very transient (even if we attain them). Some mind got really scared, without the tip of the pyramid, it is in total chaos. This pressure the mind to undergo the first differentiation. The mind no longer has a clear pyramid tip.

So some mind decide to change. Specifically, they decided to make it a highest priority to search for the missing tip of the pyramid. So it searches for it in book store, in forum, in retreats. It is on constant lookout for it (ahh, so much work). It collects large number of candidates and then use thinking to put top candidate flags to some of them.

The mind is extremely flexible, while it is still searching and screening and flagging for pyramid tip candiate, it is capable of directly try out some candiate. It says that I am going to pretend that this is the tip of pyramid for this month, and let me see if things go well. If not, I will try a different pyramid tip next month. So many people settle for one pyramid tip for some duration of time (a few years), and then change it when they enter the next stage of life.

The mind is meeting new challenges in its endeavor, old pyramid tip (money, power, sex, etc) are concrete materials, it is easy to strategize, plan and execute. Some of the new tip of the pyramid (NOW, being) are "means", not "ends", the mind would rather put them at the bottom of the pyramid than the top of the pyramid.

The mind is also getting help from totally new experience. It is pleasantly surprised that without a clear pyramid tip, life seems to be easier. The "NOW", "Being", "Nonsepration" is fertile ground capable of producing amazing "end" results. A second mind differentiation happens here. Maybe we do not need a pyramid tip after all. All we need is bottom of the pyramid, and some transient changable middle layer of the pyramid (such as writing a post on the forum, publish a book, complete a project etc).

We never know how many mind differentiation will occur or which mind variant is best, but human being has so many billions members, it is really better that we try many possible differentiation scheme. Not many people have undergone the first mind differentiation, much fewer had undergone the second mind differentiation. But the number are quickly increasing.

Erik R
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Existence is GOD

Post by Erik R » Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:09 am

we are all little patches of consciousness "trying to make our way home" like the song goes... back to the source which is GOD.. that is existence as I understand it ... we are present moment pieces of GOD

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