Realising your true self

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Seeker1977
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Re: Realising your true self

Post by Seeker1977 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:55 pm

Thank you for the very valuable answers.
kiki wrote:Every thought that references something from "your" past or projects into "your" future is part of that bundle. Every thought that labels something as "good" or "bad" or makes any kind of judgment is part of that bundle. Every thought that references something that "you" have learned or that "you" believe is part of that bundle. Every thought that defines "you" as a separate individual from everything and everyone else is part of that bundle - these kinds of thoughts could include thoughts concerning "my" emotions and "my" sensations. These are the most obvious ones, so take note of them as they arise because each of them helps to reweave your thought-based identity, the ego, and keeps it spinning away, and with that the illusion of "you" is maintained.


Yes, I notice these. I cannot, however, feel them together as a "bundle" or as a "cloud of thoughts" that "builds up my ego". But, I guess, it will come with practice, won't it?
kiki wrote:What happens to the "me" when those thoughts are no longer playing in the mind? Who/what are you then? The illusion of you is a mental phenomenon only, and without the thoughts that comprise the illusion what's left? What's left is what You really are. Find out what that is. It has to be seen directly for yourself. I won't use a word to define it right now otherwise a whole new thought based identity can get created based on that word, so see it for yourself and then I'll leave it up to you to try to define it.


Absolutely agree and I would love to find it out for myself.
kiki wrote:I'd slip in and out, but very quickly I became alert and attuned to when that happened so that over "time" I would be more and more present. There was a period of time when I'd ask myself, "Is it still now?" LOL! And of course, it always was now; that could no longer be denied - the realization that it always was now seemed to blast a big hole into the whole struggle to "be in the now". It was so obvious that it was always now that thoughts of past or future seemed to dry up rather quickly, and with that drying up thought stream changed from a torrent to a trickle.
I think I overcomplicate things. I have the gut feeling that main obstacle for me is that the whole thing is so simple. "Too" simple. And I just keep looking and looking not noticing it is right there in me, right there in the now.
kiki wrote:I still have thoughts, but they are quickly seen to be just thoughts and not "reality"; in other words, I seldom get caught up in identifying with thought. But for the most part thought stream has reduced tremendously. When needed they come, when not needed they are gone, or if not gone they are so faint, subtle, and in the background of awareness that they are no longer distracting me from just being present.
Thank you, this sounds wonderful! When your thoughts are gone, or they are "faint, subtle, and in the background of awareness", do you also feel something like "you are one with everything as everything is one with the formless" and that kind of "intensive joy of being and huge inner peace" that Eckhart talks about? Do you feel that big "inner space" or "intelligence" which is a lot larger than thoughts and actually includes thoughts, which are just a small part of this "inner space" or "intelligence"? Or being thoughtless or having thoughts "in the background" and the feeling of this "inner space" or "intelligence" are two different "things" (I don't know better word - maybe "phenomena"?)?
kiki wrote:"The compulsion to do something, to achieve something, to get somewhere else, to get to some other time other than now," - the root problem in the preceding quote of mine is solved by investigating directly as to "who" has a compulsion to do something, "who" is trying to achieve something, "who" is trying to get somewhere or looking to the past or future for something while ignoring the present moment. That's why this kind of question is frequently asked by me and by others on this board - it goes directly to the root of every problem by exposing the illusory nature of that "who".
Yes, I keep asking these questions. What I am afraid is that my ego asks and answers these questions saying "my ego does" rather than my true self. Probably (I am guessing now) that is why I don't really feel the distance between the asker and the ego. Because in my case the asker is the ego... How can I ask these questions not through my ego?
kiki wrote:The primary Tolle teaching is that this ego entity cannot spring up without "time" - that's the power of now. And the great revelation is that it is always now! Without the psychological mechanism of the mentally created time known as past and future there is no ego. In other words, if you are simply present fully to what is, thoughts of past and future don't arise and so ego doesn't either, and while abiding in what is the clarity of what you really are becomes more and more obvious...
So when I have a thought about past or the future (as I still too often have) is it enough to notice that "I am just having a thought about past/future" or "I just had a thought about past/future"? Because, as far as I understand, trying (=making efforts) to remain thoughtless won't really work.
kiki wrote:There is no ego as such; there is only the appearance of something that is called "ego" arising in the mind, and that ego has nothing to hold itself together without thoughts of past and future, without labels or judgment (which are based on thoughts rooted in the past or projected into an imagined future).
Yes, I understand this with my mind and it certainly does make sense and it is logical. Now I would like to experience it. (I keep remembering Eckhart's example about the word honey (the pointer) and the thing that honey (the thing being pointed at by the pointer) really is.)

Kiki, thank you very much for all the help you have given me so far. I hope you don't mind my many questions and hope you will answer more when you have the time and mood :-)
“Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.” -- Buddha

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Re: Realising your true self

Post by Midnight » Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:27 pm

Keep asking them, I seem to be feeling / thinking the exact same way as you. :)

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Re: Realising your true self

Post by kiki » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:37 am

Yes, I notice these. I cannot, however, feel them together as a "bundle" or as a "cloud of thoughts" that "builds up my ego". But, I guess, it will come with practice, won't it?
Regarding this "bundle of thought" - It's not that I actually view/perceive this as a "bundle", but I think of it as a bundle when talking about it; it's a convenient way of putting it when communicating (or miscommunicating :wink: ) Together, all of those thoughts that make up "you" I simply refer to as a "bundle".
Absolutely agree and I would love to find it out for myself.
Regarding finding out what you are when thoughts of "me" are not present: it will just come to you on its own, as though a light switch is turned on. This whole efforting thing to turn the switch on tends to get in the way, so try to relax about "finding it". When it's seen you'll think to yourself, "Oh, yes - of course." And then when you reread what was previously not understood you'll grasp what was being said and it will all make sense.
I think I overcomplicate things. I have the gut feeling that main obstacle for me is that the whole thing is so simple. "Too" simple. And I just keep looking and looking not noticing it is right there in me, right there in the now.
I think this is the biggest thing, making it more complicated than it really is. What You are is simplicity itself, but whenever one tries to find one's true nature they've introduced an element of complexity. It's that complexity that gets in the way of seeing/realizing the simplicity of your true nature. So, be simple by simply being what you are without trying to be anything in particular - (I suppose I've just made it more complicated now - Ah... sorry about that, but that's what explanations and words tend to do). Adyashanti's "True Meditation" is a useful "non-tool" in helping you see/realize the simplicity of true nature.

Thank you, this sounds wonderful! When your thoughts are gone, or they are "faint, subtle, and in the background of awareness", do you also feel something like "you are one with everything as everything is one with the formless" and that kind of "intensive joy of being and huge inner peace" that Eckhart talks about? Do you feel that big "inner space" or "intelligence" which is a lot larger than thoughts and actually includes thoughts, which are just a small part of this "inner space" or "intelligence"? Or being thoughtless or having thoughts "in the background" and the feeling of this "inner space" or "intelligence" are two different "things" (I don't know better word - maybe "phenomena"?)?
I don't go around thinking or feeling "I am one with everything". Rather, there is nothing present that tells me that I am separate from anything. There is just an open endedness that everything flows into, including the appearance of thoughts, emotions, sensations, and objects. There is an ever present silence and stillness that gives way to every sound and every movement. In other words, there is just a field of awareness having no boundary or dimension that everything arises and dissolves in. Even if anger or frustration comes (and it does occasionally) there is still a deep peace.

Yes, I keep asking these questions. What I am afraid is that my ego asks and answers these questions saying "my ego does" rather than my true self. Probably (I am guessing now) that is why I don't really feel the distance between the asker and the ego. Because in my case the asker is the ego... How can I ask these questions not through my ego?
On self- enquiry: I like how Ramana Maharshi explained this: it's like using one thorn to remove another, then both are thrown away. Let the question come even though it's coming from ego/mind. When what is sought is seen the ego/mind just drops, or it is simply seen through as though it is made of tissue paper.

The true Self doesn't actually ask anything - it has no reason to; it's not separate from anything, it isn't in need of anything - it simply is fully present here, now, always.

So when I have a thought about past or the future (as I still too often have) is it enough to notice that "I am just having a thought about past/future" or "I just had a thought about past/future"? Because, as far as I understand, trying (=making efforts) to remain thoughtless won't really work.
Yes - just notice what is happening, recognizing that mind has come in and is making some noise or some demand. When you actually catch yourself in the act of seeing mind arise you've broken through a layer of conditioning. At first you may be caught up in mind stream for a while and then you see what's happened, that's when you can just relax and let go of needing to follow mind activity. In other words, you've created some space around thought so that you no longer get automatically entangled within it like you previously did. Eventually you become very alert to the slightest movement of thought and can simply relax again. This is when you start to notice the spaciousness that You are.

kiki wrote:There is no ego as such; there is only the appearance of something that is called "ego" arising in the mind, and that ego has nothing to hold itself together without thoughts of past and future, without labels or judgment (which are based on thoughts rooted in the past or projected into an imagined future).


Yes, I understand this with my mind and it certainly does make sense and it is logical. Now I would like to experience it. (I keep remembering Eckhart's example about the word honey (the pointer) and the thing that honey (the thing being pointed at by the pointer) really is.)
Don't worry, it will happen.
Kiki, thank you very much for all the help you have given me so far. I hope you don't mind my many questions and hope you will answer more when you have the time and mood :-)
I am glad to help. Answering these kinds of questions helps me as well.

kiki
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Re: Realising your true self

Post by Midnight » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:47 pm

Kiki, I had a kind of realization last night, I basically thought I had transcended the ego but it was actually just in an incredibly subtle form. I dropped trying to control my mind for some time and listened to the power of now for the first time in agesss.

Now I'm trying to put all my attention in the now as much as possible, it seems so difficult though because my brain is constantly thinking about past and future and mixing them up together, its almost as if a hood goes over my eyes whenever this happens and I'm taken somewhere else.

The thing is, the very first time I listened to PoN I didn't take it all in, I didn't actually see the mechanics of my mind, now i DO I see how utterly dysfunctional it is and I want to stop it.

How do I stop from being this 'mind cop' the whole time who is constantly saying to himself "theres another thought about past/future" practically all day constantly watching it - I feel like if I stop watching these thoughts they will take me over.

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Re: Realising your true self

Post by Marcel Franke » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:08 pm

It seems what you are trying to do,
is control something that is constantly changing.
In other words, you are trying to change change.
And the effect is increasing intensity of change.
Doesn’t work, does it ?
It doesn’t result in peace.
But instead of focussing to the change,
have you ever tried to focus to that which does not change ?
Perhaps you have not looked into that yet.
Have you ever tried to focus to that what is already in peace ?
Look, you are here.
Otherwise, how can it be that this computerscreen is here ?
You are seeing it.
There is sitting, seeing, hearing….
You are here right now.
You are here, are you not ?
It is already achieved.
Now, what is that you have to do for that ?
Nothing, right ?
You are here right now.
Do you have to solve any problem first, before you can be here right now ?
Or do you need some instructions from a guru to be here ?
No you don’t, right ?
You are already perfectly here.
Whatever the circumstances.
Nothing you have to do for it,
no goal is needed at all.
Do you first need to understand it, for this being here, right now ?
You already are here, not ?
So, that is rather a “peacefull construction”, not ?
Is that not what you long for ?
Can you focus to that ?
---ooOoo---

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Re: Realising your true self

Post by James » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:23 pm

Some very clear and direct responses, thanks Kiki.

There is a saying that Meditation is not something you do, it is what you are; the allowing Presence in which everything appears.
"Awareness is already present, already here, already now; before you try to be more.... In that recognition there's no effort, there's just acknowledgment"..."Awareness is not something you can understand, it's something you are."

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Re: Realising your true self

Post by kiki » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:11 pm

How do I stop from being this 'mind cop' the whole time who is constantly saying to himself "theres another thought about past/future" practically all day constantly watching it - I feel like if I stop watching these thoughts they will take me over.
If you haven't already done so, get Adyashanti's True Meditation, a 3 CD set that explains what it is, then he guides you into letting everything go step by step in 3 different meditations. His 6 CD compilation, Spontaneous Awakening, is also excellent, and has 2 guided meditations. Additionally, get ET's audio version of Stillness Speaks. Just listen to it without trying to understand everything. Pay particular attention to the pauses - you may find that suddenly the pause comes and you are just silent, still, yet totally aware and awake. I wouldn't be surprised if you find Stillness Speaks in your public library.

Here is Adya's website: http://www.adyashanti.org/

Here is our board's section dedicated to him: http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth ... m.php?f=29
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Realising your true self

Post by Seeker1977 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:31 am

kiki wrote:Regarding this "bundle of thought" - It's not that I actually view/perceive this as a "bundle", but I think of it as a bundle when talking about it; it's a convenient way of putting it when communicating (or miscommunicating :wink: ) Together, all of those thoughts that make up "you" I simply refer to as a "bundle".
Oh, thank you, now I understand :-)
kiki wrote:Regarding finding out what you are when thoughts of "me" are not present: it will just come to you on its own, as though a light switch is turned on. This whole efforting thing to turn the switch on tends to get in the way, so try to relax about "finding it". When it's seen you'll think to yourself, "Oh, yes - of course." And then when you reread what was previously not understood you'll grasp what was being said and it will all make sense.
Okay, this sounds easy enough :-) I will relax about "finiding it". There is no rush, I have plenty of time. I won't make a though of it as something that can/will only happen in the future (as that would not be true at all) but won't push it saying "now, I want it now" either.
kiki wrote:I think this is the biggest thing, making it more complicated than it really is. What You are is simplicity itself, but whenever one tries to find one's true nature they've introduced an element of complexity. It's that complexity that gets in the way of seeing/realizing the simplicity of your true nature. So, be simple by simply being what you are without trying to be anything in particular - (I suppose I've just made it more complicated now - Ah... sorry about that, but that's what explanations and words tend to do). Adyashanti's "True Meditation" is a useful "non-tool" in helping you see/realize the simplicity of true nature.
I think I understand. Yes, I will look for "True Meditation" (I guess is a voicebook/meditation soundtrack?). I now watch Eckhart Tolle's India retreat videos, and I have two books I haven't read yet: "Radiant Mind" by Peter Fenner and "Emptiness Dancing" by Adyashanti.
kiki wrote:I don't go around thinking or feeling "I am one with everything". Rather, there is nothing present that tells me that I am separate from anything. There is just an open endedness that everything flows into, including the appearance of thoughts, emotions, sensations, and objects. There is an ever present silence and stillness that gives way to every sound and every movement. In other words, there is just a field of awareness having no boundary or dimension that everything arises and dissolves in. Even if anger or frustration comes (and it does occasionally) there is still a deep peace.
This is really an interesting way! I always tried to feel that I am one with everything. But if I am one with everything (and I am) then it definetely does makes sense to think that I am spearated from nothing. Thank you Kiki!
kiki wrote:Yes - just notice what is happening, recognizing that mind has come in and is making some noise or some demand. When you actually catch yourself in the act of seeing mind arise you've broken through a layer of conditioning. At first you may be caught up in mind stream for a while and then you see what's happened, that's when you can just relax and let go of needing to follow mind activity. In other words, you've created some space around thought so that you no longer get automatically entangled within it like you previously did. Eventually you become very alert to the slightest movement of thought and can simply relax again. This is when you start to notice the spaciousness that You are.
This is a wonderful explanation - it is finally clear now! Thank you! "... you may be caught up in mind stream for a while and then you see what's happened..." - yes, this is actually what happens in my case. I am present and thoughtless and then the next thing I notice that I have been having thoughts for some time. (Actually I just realised something as I wrote the previous sentence. If I had the thoughts and some time later I noticed that I had the thoughts, then the I who had the thoughts and the I who realised that I had the thoughta are two different I's! As it seems... And even better, this came not only as a thought but as a "deep feeling" as well. Maybe I start to feel that (non-existing :-)) distance between the thinker and the observer.)

Thank you again. Can I ask some more favor? Great2be had a post here > http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth ... =10&t=7693 < and I answered to that here > http://eckhart-tolle-forum.inner-growth ... =15#p59830 <. As always, I would be curious about your opinion.
“Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.” -- Buddha

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Re: Realising your true self

Post by Seeker1977 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:35 am

Midnight wrote:How do I stop from being this 'mind cop' the whole time who is constantly saying to himself "theres another thought about past/future" practically all day constantly watching it - I feel like if I stop watching these thoughts they will take me over.
Excellent question. I am curious too, as I feel exactly the same too...
“Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.” -- Buddha

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Re: Realising your true self

Post by Seeker1977 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:41 am

and has 2 guided meditations.
What is the name of the CD that contains these guided meditations?
“Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.” -- Buddha

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Re: Realising your true self

Post by kiki » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:02 am

Seeker wrote:If I had the thoughts and some time later I noticed that I had the thoughts, then the I who had the thoughts and the I who realised that I had the thoughta are two different I's!


YES! The "I" that notices thoughts are present is one's true nature, it is consciousness itself. Very good.

And even better, this came not only as a thought but as a "deep feeling" as well. Maybe I start to feel that (non-existing :-)) distance between the thinker and the observer.)
It takes no thought to realize thought is present. Consciousness/awareness simply notices/witnesses what's going on, whether something is happening within the mind or around you. The true "observer" is consciousness.
and has 2 guided meditations.

What is the name of the CD that contains these guided meditations?
There is a 3 CD set entitled True Meditation that contains 3 guided meditations. I think it has come out in book form as well, and that along with the book there is a CD with the guided meditations on it. The 6 CD compilation entitled Spontaneous Awakening has 2 guided meditations on the third disk.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Realising your true self

Post by Seeker1977 » Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:24 pm

kiki wrote:...
Thank you for all the answers and help.
“Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.” -- Buddha

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Re: Realising your true self

Post by none » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:50 am

Excellent questions and crystal clear answers. Thanks kiki, Seeker1977 and Midnight.

This thread is very useful for folks like me.

Very often the choice of words used by the teachers or those who have realized the truth are confusing or hard to understand even though they may be appropriate for the context. For example, I understood what exactly kiki means by "certain "bundle of thoughts" weaved themselves together to construct "kiki"". But it's hard for someone who has not crossed that bridge to understand what is being said. So for the sake of seekers here please keep it simple.

kiki, I keep watching my thoughts and I also realize (only when I analyze myself) that I'm a bundle of thoughts. But often I get lost into thoughts either habitually or because I got to get things done. I'm not sure if I can get things done while watching my thoughts.

Your point "It's a relaxing into it so that it can be "seen" by letting go of the compulsion to do something" is great pointer.

What should I do further? Please don't tell me "you are already realized", "be in the awareness", "let the light fall on you..." etc etc. I'm so tired of those jargons and hi-fi talk.

On one hand you seem to say one should "relax" and on the other hand you say one has to practice Adyashanti's meditation to go further.

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Re: Realising your true self

Post by kiki » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:25 am

What should I do further? Please don't tell me "you are already realized", "be in the awareness", "let the light fall on you..." etc etc. I'm so tired of those jargons and hi-fi talk.

On one hand you seem to say one should "relax" and on the other hand you say one has to practice Adyashanti's meditation to go further.
I think that if people were to listen to Adya's guided meditations on a regular basis they will learn to recognize more clearly how they don't "relax into it" and are instead subtly doing/manipulating something to get somewhere or achieve something. In other words, they see those many things they are doing compulsively and unconsciously rather than simply relaxing into it by doing nothing. His "meditation", then, is not so much a technique but a relinquishing of "doing" in all of its forms so that true nature can be more easily recognized - it's more of a conscious non-efforting. His meditation trains you to "do nothing" - I know, it sounds strange.

It's this same non-manipulating that can be carried over into daily activities, and that's why I see such a value in it.
"Miss Kelly, perhaps you'd like this flower. I seem to have misplaced my buttonhole ... Miss Kelly, you know, when you wear my flower you make it look beautiful." Elwood P. Dowd
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Re: Realising your true self

Post by alex » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:03 am

Hi none, its kind of cruel isnt it. Enlightenment seems to be some yummy lolly dangling in front of you and if only you could do something you would get to it. But in doing anything you are distancing yourself so how on earth are you ever going to get that lolly?! But I guess its like Adya says: The only purpose of the spiritual path is to absolutely exhaust the seeker until they are ready to surrender to what is. Then you will realize there is no lolly. There is no enlightenment, only the realization that you are the awareness... theres absolutely nothing you can do to get it because its what you are. Tis why its so important to completely relax. Really from your heart let everything be as it is. Then from that deep awareness and relaxation notice a thought then notice the space around it. BE that space. Be the clear nothingness that thought happened within.

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