What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

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enigma
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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by enigma » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:38 am

Webwanderer wrote:
enigma wrote: I'm having trouble with the terminology again. What do you mean by "essential self"?
I can work with this: The basic, real, and invariable nature of self.
The question "who or what am I" is an invitation to look, not to come up with an answer. Any answer mind comes up with will be wrong. It will be another object that 'you' are aware of.
The point isn't so much to come up with a definitive answer. Conclusions and insights may only be wrong in that they're incomplete. That's to be expected from our limited consciousness. To say an elephant has a trunk is not wrong, to say it is a trunk is the error. The point is to increase understanding and clarity even if it's only piecemeal. Words are all we have to convey an insight one may have to another, and words are inherently incomplete when pointing in their ability to convey.

Rather than seeing how another's view is wrong based on our own definitions, let us strive to look where the words point and get a sense of what is seen. There is no requirement to agree of course, but not to fairly look unnecessarily limits a possible avenue of understanding. Just maybe we'll see that there are more interesting parts connected to that trunk, and that there's more to an elephant than we first imagined.
NDE's and OBE's are more experience; more dream stuff. Nothing in the dream can say anything true about the dreamer.
More dream stuff from what perspective? How much do you know of them? It may well be less dreamy from its own venue than from where we stand in physical form. And while NDEs etc may or may not give greater insight into our Source of being, it certainly offers an awakening into a greater understanding of the nature of life. And such understanding gives a significantly clearer perspective on what purpose there may be in human experience.

WW
The notion that there can be a clear understanding of the essential nature of Self, is a misunderstanding. The purpose of life is life. The nature of life is life. The essence of Being is to be. Simple, simple, because all of this is prior to mind and it's stories of purpose and complete understanding and the nature of this or that.

If there is such a thing as understanding, it's in the clarity of what is NOT so as one views the stories from a place of no perspective at all, and talks about how they're just stories. Stories are fine until they are believed, and then they can become a problem to solve. How can I understand? What is my purpose? How can I comprehend the purpose or the nature or the Self?
You can't, not because you're brain hasn't developed enough or you're not thinking in the right way, but because there is nothing to understand.

enigma
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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by enigma » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:41 am

Webwanderer wrote:
Ralph wrote:
Webwanderer wrote:
And while NDEs etc may or may not give greater insight into our Source of being, it certainly offers an awakening into a greater understanding of the nature of life. And such understanding gives a significantly clearer perspective on what purpose there may be in human experience.

How much do you know of them? ... have you had a NDE or OBE ?

.. what if the experience is just like taking a hit of LSD, instead of giving more clarity, it may give more confusion.
Thanks for your interest Ralph.

I actually know quite a bit. I have studied them for 30 years, reading more books and articles than I can remember, had a minor OBE and had a good number of lucid dreams.

As far as an LSD hit, I've had that too and in my experience it does not favorably compare. And if I may suggest, 'what if' questions are generally not very helpful. There is far to much fear and imagination in them and too little real insight. The only way you will know what NDE's have to offer is either to have one yourself, or to study them for the insight and perspective they point to. It's really worth the effort.

WW
I don't believe any of that because you're missing the point. :wink:

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by Webwanderer » Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:22 am

Enigma, I'll leave you with the last word, and our readers to decide for themselves. May we all choose wisely. :D

WW

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by Ralph » Sat Nov 27, 2010 3:24 am

Webwanderer wrote :
Enigma, I'll leave you with the last word, and our readers to decide for themselves. May we all choose wisely. :D
hmmm... :roll:

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by karmarider » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:16 pm

enigma wrote:The notion that there can be a clear understanding of the essential nature of Self, is a misunderstanding. The purpose of life is life. The nature of life is life. The essence of Being is to be. Simple, simple, because all of this is prior to mind and it's stories of purpose and complete understanding and the nature of this or that.
This is the simple truth, but very difficult for the ego, which gets a lot of juice from conceptualizing. The ego's will to survive can lead it to theorize, conceptualize, push and pull concepts this way and that way, until beliefs and terminology about awakening and awareness harden into something the mind is satisfied with, and can draw a boundary around it, and when other concepts and terminology don't quite smell the same, there is rejection.

Krishnamurti was right in that the devil does not have to worry about Truth being out in the open, because the ego's will to survive is strong, and it will immediately organize and conceptualize Truth.

When you look for it, it's pretty obvious that any one time some particular theory and terminology comes into favor on this forum.
enigma wrote:If there is such a thing as understanding, it's in the clarity of what is NOT so as one views the stories from a place of no perspective at all, and talks about how they're just stories. Stories are fine until they are believed, and then they can become a problem to solve. How can I understand? What is my purpose? How can I comprehend the purpose or the nature or the Self?
You can't, not because you're brain hasn't developed enough or you're not thinking in the right way, but because there is nothing to understand.
Jed McKenna has it right when he says all we need to worry about is the very next question. It's difficult for the ego to see that a conceptual understanding is not needed for recognition, and often gets in the way of recognition, and sometimes even disguises itself as recognition.

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by Ralph » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:25 pm

karmarider wrote:
It's difficult for the ego to see that a conceptual understanding is not needed for recognition, and often gets in the way of recognition, and sometimes even disguises itself as recognition.
Yes ... and sometimes it even disguises itself as the one who just said this. :wink:

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by enigma » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:35 pm

Ego is always the one talking. It's okay.

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by karmarider » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:42 pm

Ralph wrote:
karmarider wrote:
It's difficult for the ego to see that a conceptual understanding is not needed for recognition, and often gets in the way of recognition, and sometimes even disguises itself as recognition.
Yes ... and sometimes it even disguises itself as the one who just said this. :wink:
Of course.

It's my ego talking, and when you cleverly pointed this out, it's your ego talking.

Every word is a concept, and as as soon as a word is used, it is pointing to something. When this is recognized, it is one thing, when it is not recognized, then conceptual stories are believed, and they harden into dogma and specific terminology. Any theory of awakening is limiting. Even the ones that come from "direct experience" or "subtle knowningness" are limiting when they harden into boundaries.

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by Ralph » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:08 am

karmarider wrote :
It's my ego talking, and when you cleverly pointed this out, it's your ego talking.
enigma wrote:
Ego is always the one talking. It's okay.
.. but it can become problematic if it turns into a belief.
Last edited by Ralph on Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by Webwanderer » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:12 am

Maybe this ego thing isn't all bad. Instead of trying to eliminate it outright, it could be wiser to understand its nature. Pointing to it makes its presence recognizable, but then what?

WW

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by Mouse » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:23 am

Webwanderer wrote:Maybe this ego thing isn't all bad. Instead of trying to eliminate it outright, it could be wiser to understand its nature. Pointing to it makes its presence recognizable, but then what?

WW
This is what I am doing. By knowing my self that neutralizes the selfish bits and I am left in the pure self which is the body.
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by Ralph » Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:39 am

Webwanderer wrote:
Maybe this ego thing isn't all bad. Instead of trying to eliminate it outright, it could be wiser to understand its nature. Pointing to it makes its presence recognizable, but then what?
Have fun :D

because you now no longer identify it as your true identity. It can now be used somewhat like a 'tool' instead of as 'your master'.

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by karmarider » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:13 am

Well, an insight which is gelling from this inquiry is that it's not about change. There is no volition to change or to be better or different. Ego stays. Identities stay. Sense of self stays. Thoughts, emotions, the rest stay. It's just they are not my ego, or my identities, or my sense of self. The my which was threaded through all of this is smoke.

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by Mouse » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:31 am

karmarider wrote:Well, an insight which is gelling from this inquiry is that it's not about change. There is no volition to change or to be better or different. Ego stays. Identities stay. Sense of self stays. Thoughts, emotions, the rest stay. It's just they are not my ego, or my identities, or my sense of self. The my which was threaded through all of this is smoke.
Does that mean you are not responsible for it?
I have been inspired by Barry Long's teaching and I write this so as to acknowledge my source of inspiration. It is a wonderful help, and it is a wonderful gift.

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Re: What is the most direct way to realize "I" does not exist?

Post by karmarider » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:40 am

Mouse wrote:
karmarider wrote:Well, an insight which is gelling from this inquiry is that it's not about change. There is no volition to change or to be better or different. Ego stays. Identities stay. Sense of self stays. Thoughts, emotions, the rest stay. It's just they are not my ego, or my identities, or my sense of self. The my which was threaded through all of this is smoke.
Does that mean you are not responsible for it?
One answer to this would be there is responsibility, it's just not my responsibility. (That's not a semantic trick).

But I've put aside questions about free will and responsibility and Oneness and anything else that is not part of this direct inquiry for now.

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