What Am I - What Are You?

A place for anything that doesn't fit into the existing forums

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby Sighclone » Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:23 am

Ego doesn't automatically mean suffering,


Ego means accepting and nourishing a false self. (This is an Eckhart Tolle forum, and I prefer his definition to any that have been reached in these threads; not that they are "wrong," just a personal preference.) That false self can provide moments of pleasure which always die away and need to be replaced...with other equally evanscent experiences, equally addicting. And infinte tail-chasing and repeated frustration continues. That is suffering.

For those whose minds have created a powerful, effective, and often compassionate ego, discarding it can be particularly difficult. And the passing of that ego is felt, before it dies away, to be likely to leave a particularly gaping, scary emptiness which cannot be imagined to dance until grace is allowed to work.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby garuda » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:32 am

Webwanderer wrote: How long do these points of view last? Who knows? Maybe forever. There is certainly nothing to require they must end.

the key master wrote: Dont bring up any reincarnation voodoo here WW

Webwanderer wrote: Voodoo? But what if there's truth here? Is it still voodoo? I will stand with Tolle and Danison and Mellon-Thomas Benedict.

the key master wrote: I think there is truth there. I don’t think its voodoo at all. Was just giving you a sarcastic jab. I thought it was clear that I practice voodoo in my spare time...

This innocent misunderstanding is an excellent example of what I’m about to talk about. I knew immediately upon reading the key master’s joking comment to WW about Voodoo, that he was just teasing — because I know key master’s clarity, his attitude on voodoo, and most of all his sense of humor. And I'm also familiar with WW's style and clarity. But because we can neither see the person’s face, nor always be in tune with their demeanor or mood — it’s easy to take phrases out of context or misinterpret them when we don’t detect the person shifting gears: serious in one statement, then joking in the next.

As I read over the posts on this thread, I can’t help but notice the clarity and validity of each of the contributors. I think I see this because I have read most of you guys long enough to know your individual perspectives, your clarity, writing styles, and the meanings you intend for the words that you use.

The sad part? I suspect that if any given reader is not familiar with the contributor’s style and the meanings/definitions intended for the words in his/her post, then there is much room for misunderstanding and possibly disagreement.

For example, when we use the word “you” or “You” — it can mean a few different things to different people. The word “You” could mean the fabricated personality. Or the mindstream that composes thoughts and speech. Or the false ego identity. Or the editorial you when referring to people in general. Or the formless pristine awareness. Or the “you” reference that even an enlightened person must use as a convention in order to convey opinions to another person. Or the “You” that refers to the universal mere Consciousness (often used interchangeably with "formless pristine Awareness").

However, if that last example of “You” which refers to the formless Universal Consciousness, happens to be written as just “consciousness,” then another can-of-worms is unleashed. Because now we don’t know the meaning of “consciousness” — it could be interpreted as referring to “sense consciousness” or “sub-consciousness” or “awaken-ness” or the “ultimate formless Consciousness” or another synonym “You.” Now we’re back to the possible “You” confusion again, and the circular repartee of misunderstanding begins all over again, potentially to ad nauseam.

It’s unfortunate that there isn’t one single uniform standard of definitions for the spiritual vocabulary, to avoid potentially misunderstanding a person’s opinion or spiritual understanding. Although, maybe that wouldn’t be good either. Because if everyone was in sync with the same set of definitions for every word used, then after everyone gave their rendition of the universal Truth and discovered that they all agreed with each other — then we wouldn’t have anything to discuss here. Because then everyone would be in agreement with everyone else. (That could get boring).

If everyone agreed about the Truth, then the exchange of wisdom would end, the threads would go cold, and the forum would shut down due to lack of use, and therefore also its function. So don’t anyone dare think of compiling a universally defined dictionary for spiritual words and terms. The whole spiritual movement might collapse. Then we all would have to find something else to search for. Ughhh! Do you really want to fill the “rabbit hole” up with dirt? :mrgreen:
Recognize present awareness......... rest in that awareness..........don’t become distracted.
garuda
 
Posts: 367
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:44 pm
Location: USA

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby gen6 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:37 am

If not else, with the help of your talent for expressing your thoughts very clearly with details, I now completely understand your theory and what people here are preaching. That's very useful.

I have to admit that your theory is flawless, I mean it does make sense if we accept certain things, ideas to be true, it's a well built theory. However if we do not accept these certain things,ideas, to be true, then this theory just disappears. These certain things and ideas, in this theory easily fall into the category of assumptions, isn't that right? If it's not right, can you test them or show some evidence or show that they are not just assumptions, somehow?

The substance, which is awareness, is one and non-dual, the form is multiplicity; the entire universe.


Alright, so is awareness a substance? From the other things you say I understand it's not, or may be I lack knowledge in English, which is probably the case here.
What do you mean by the substance, which is awareness?
Because from what I understand, for you, awareness, the one you believe in, is an idea that cannot be defined anyhow, we can say what it's not but we cannot say what it is. It's an idea, generated by your mind, an idea that cannot be defined.

I don't see anything wrong with the notion of multiplicity of awareness


It can only be an assumption, and it's also illogical. It can only be an assumption because there is no way of testing for the existence of multiple awarenesses, due to the fact that all testing and evidences must necessarily be object to the (subject) awareness itself. There is nothing outside of awareness, the limitations we impose upon it are due to conflating and superimposing the body and its attributes (such as sense perception etc) onto it- which is fallacious because the body and its attributes, including the mind, are all objects of knowledge to awareness itself, not the other way around.


Actually, you are right, that's why I don't believe this 100%, but your theory can also be taken as an assumption since there's no way that we test this or we cannot have any evidence, am I not right?

Awareness can only be assumed to be many, and this is solely on the basis of placing it inside an object, namely the body.


Yes, yes, absolutely, that's right.

You might still insist 'there are multiple awarenesses, however' - but there is simply no evidence for this.


You are right again, there is simply no evidence for this, but I can say the same thing about your theory and it is still valid, isn't it? Or is there any evidence for this theory?


We also conclude that because each body has a unique subjective experience, awareness must also be individual, being a product of or combination of the elements which make up the subjective experience. Therefore, awareness begins to be identified with the mind (intellect, thoughts, memory, imagination etc), thence comes the ideas of ownership (my body, my mind), doership (I think, I feel, I did this, I did that') and eventually Ego - individual sense in a concrete form 'I am the body' 'I am different from this, I am not you, you are not me' etc. This conclusion is the bedrock of most western philosophy, religion, and worldview and also the subsequent trend of reactionary views and materialism.


It's possible that, awareness is individual but it's absolutely the same with everybody. But why do you have to identify it with the mind? I cannot just connect these two. If we accept that they are both in the brain, why do we have to identify the one with the other. Also I can't find anything wrong with the ideas of doership and I am different from this, I am not you, you are not me , what's wrong with that? it doesn't bring any negativism and lead towards any negative action or thought. It's just a fact. You are not me, I am not you, I know this as a fact, but it doesn't do anything negative to me or provokes any destructive thoughts or anything. What's wrong with that?


Furthermore, how did we turn bodily identification in ego?


Bodily identification is ego. The body is individual, separated from other objects in time and space. Composed of multiple parts, is born and will die, and performs actions and experiences the subsequent result. Identifying the Self with this is the cause of such statements 'I am fat, I am thin, I am stupid, I am ugly, I was born on this day, I will die soon, I am old, I am young, I am ill, I need to do this, I did that, this happened to me' -all of this is ego, bodily identification, it's cause being ignorance due to superimposing the qualities of objects (body) onto the subject (awareness).


What means bodily identification? I personally do not know a single person and I am sure that no person on this planet will ever say that he/she is his body? Do you know such a person? I am not my body. Do you think that when I say - I am fat, I am thin, I am clever this equals bodily identification?


And how did we turn the Ego into suffering


Ignorance causes suffering, and ego is a product of ignorance. By identifying the Self as the body we claim ownership of every action, of every reaction, of every thought and feeling. We try to control the experience, desire is the result, disappointment is the result, clinging to experiences and anticipation of future ones is the result, greed is the result, hatred of (perceived) others is the result, a feeling of lack is the result, self-image is the result, misery is the result. This whole cycle of results is the inherent suffering in egoic existence, and it is all based on a mistake, on lack of inquiry. Self-inquiry is the cure for this imagined disease.
:)


Ego is a product of ignorance, only if we apply your theory, if we apply another theory, Ego is not a product of ignorance.
Things are really not so over simplified as you describe them:

We try to control the experience, desire is the result, disappointment is the result, clinging to experiences and anticipation of future ones is the result, greed is the result, hatred of (perceived) others is the result, a feeling of lack is the result, self-image is the result, misery is the result.


This is way too simple and I think, not true. Not everybody tries to control experience, the results are many, not only negative, all these results.....I cannot agree with these, have you personally experienced all of this exactly the way you describe it ? How did you come up with these conclusions? I haven't, I think nobody has, I think that this formula cannot describe completely - feeling of lack, greed, hatred of others etc.

There is also one thing that bothers me. According to your theory and beliefs I have to be suffering somehow in some way. I am stepping over many lines that should cause suffering according to you. I have many beliefs that according to your theory should put me in the suffering zone. However, I'm not suffering or at least I'm not consciously aware of my suffering. Everything is pretty fine with me and I do feel very content and happy. Moreover I do experience what you experience at least from what I saw in your posts, how you describe everything, I'm the same way but I have different beliefs. My case has to be a very special one...It's just very contradictory...Do you think you can come up with some explanation for this ?
Last edited by gen6 on Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Live as if nothing and everything matters at the same time.
User avatar
gen6
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:22 pm
Location: Europe

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby Sighclone » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:22 am

gen -

Everything is pretty fine with me and I do feel very content and happy.


Wow. This isn't what you have said in other threads...

And nothing seems to work. I have bipolar and ptsd (post traumatic stress disorder) and it disables me from being cured. What should I do?


Are you cured? Did this forum help? Did your own spiritual development help?

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby gen6 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:45 am

Sighclone wrote:gen -

Everything is pretty fine with me and I do feel very content and happy.


Wow. This isn't what you have said in other threads...

And nothing seems to work. I have bipolar and ptsd (post traumatic stress disorder) and it disables me from being cured. What should I do?


Are you cured? Did this forum help? Did your own spiritual development help?

Andy


Hehe, thanks for diggin the old shirts Andy :) As you might guess I was in depression back then, for the bipolar as you might guess again, I self diagnosed myself, I can now for say for sure that this diagnosis is simply not true, bipolar is something far more serious than I thought back then. May be I had some temporary symptoms of it and I made this wrong diagnosis. You know that when people are in depression, they are not at their peak performance, mainly because the brain is chemically influenced. At that time, I just wanted to understand more about what was happening to me, reading all kind of depression stuff and putting the labels. Actually I did have OCD but I cured myself from that. That was real.
Please indicate the fact that since I'm in this forum I've changed a lot. My personal life also. I am absolutely 100% fine now, mentally and bodily and in any way. People do change, you know, this post I guess is before 7-8 months or so?
You remember, I told you about a minor stroke I had, this was also very real I believe, though I haven't spoke to a real doctor, this again is self diagnosis, but since some mental and also motor functions were influenced(like memory, language, fine movements with hand,fingers etc.). I guess it's real. But that was many years ago, around 5. Brain is miraculous though, I can claim that I have fully recovered since then.

This forum in particular didn't do much in changing my life or my depression, I did change that, I cured myself using absolutely different techniques and strategies that have more to do with professional psychotherapy, though I did find the techniques by myself, after that, I read some materials, I realized that I had used techniques that are used in psychotherapy.

I hope I've answered your question. And Yes, I'm very happy and content right now, the only one I can thank about this, is me.

I'm looking forward your comments...
Live as if nothing and everything matters at the same time.
User avatar
gen6
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:22 pm
Location: Europe

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby Marcel Franke » Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:51 pm

Hi Andy,

Andy:
> Ego means accepting and nourishing a false self.

Then what is it that does that ?

Tschüss,
Mars.
---ooOoo---
User avatar
Marcel Franke
 
Posts: 655
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:28 pm

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby Sighclone » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:24 pm

From PON, p. 22: "[ego] means a false self created by unconscious identification with the mind."

Berfore awakening, people have a "sense of self" derived from the content and activity of the mind. (Also paraphrased from p. 22).

Of course, somehow I think you already knew that... :mrgreen:

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby Sighclone » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:25 pm

I'm looking forward your comments...


Congratulations.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby gen6 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:27 pm

Yeah, sorry, did misinterpret that. Please delete post.
Last edited by gen6 on Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Live as if nothing and everything matters at the same time.
User avatar
gen6
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:22 pm
Location: Europe

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby Marcel Franke » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:30 pm

> ego means a false self created by unconscious identification with the mind

Ok..., then it is "unconsciousness" that does it ?
---ooOoo---
User avatar
Marcel Franke
 
Posts: 655
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:28 pm

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby Marcel Franke » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:32 pm

Gen:
> Any reason that you behave like a 7 year old?

Well, why dont you try it ?
Any reason not to ?
Jesus was a fan of it.
---ooOoo---
User avatar
Marcel Franke
 
Posts: 655
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:28 pm

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby gen6 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:40 pm

Yeah, sorry, did misinterpret that. Please delete post.
Last edited by gen6 on Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Live as if nothing and everything matters at the same time.
User avatar
gen6
 
Posts: 380
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:22 pm
Location: Europe

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby Marcel Franke » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:44 pm

> Why do I also get this kindergarten feeling around here

Ah ! The Leela-Feeling...
My dear Gen6, in this great Kindergarten,
things just happen, for no reason at all.
There is nobody who does it.
The idea that there is somebody who does "do",
also just happens.
---ooOoo---
User avatar
Marcel Franke
 
Posts: 655
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:28 pm

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby Sighclone » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:01 pm

gen6 -

Please check your PMs.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Postby Sighclone » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:05 pm

ego means a false self created by unconscious identification with the mind

Ok..., then it is "unconsciousness" that does it ?


I beleive that every human, at whatever level of awareness, has some kind of "sense of self." You actually turn your head when you hear your name (particularly if someone is holding a gun!) I think the source of that sense of self varies depending on conditioning and spiritual development.

Andy
A person is not a thing or a process, but an opening through which the universe manifests. - Martin Heidegger
There is not past, no future; everything flows in an eternal present. - James Joyce
User avatar
Sighclone
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 6182
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:22 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest