What Am I - What Are You?

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SandyJoy
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by SandyJoy » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:55 pm

Webwanderer wrote:Most excellent SandyJoy. Your energy shines through in a most beautiful way. Love your post.

WW
I always enjoy your posts too! :D And I appreciate your appreciation :lol:

smiileyjen101 wrote:Or he may just say 'no thanks... (be like those two mad women?????)

I love the little dancing guy! Nice posts from you too---Your puppy running out the gate just said it all! That analogy triggered my Heart's Vision.

And yes, we might sound a bit mad---the marvel is that I've never felt so balanced in such an unleashed way. Like a joyful, disorderly, rambunctious Equanimity. :lol:
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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DavidB
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by DavidB » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:22 pm

Apparently, David B, you have bought into one of the major sticking places many of us arrive at when first learning about the "subjective" view
No, not at all, I haven't bought anything, but thanks for the observation.

I learned about the subjective nature of reality a long time ago. I was merely presenting one of the views that I had, you seem to have apparently made the error of assuming that was were I was at.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

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SandyJoy
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by SandyJoy » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:57 pm

DavidB wrote:
Apparently, David B, you have bought into one of the major sticking places many of us arrive at when first learning about the "subjective" view
No, not at all, I haven't bought anything, but thanks for the observation.

I learned about the subjective nature of reality a long time ago. I was merely presenting one of the views that I had, you seem to have apparently made the error of assuming that was were I was at.
Oh, Good, I am glad to know you did not 'buy the dogma' so to speak. And that you mentioned the concept of "no self" and "self annihilation" made for a very nice way for us to all speak our minds about said subject. :D
You are not finished, until you play in that meadow and live there. You can, you know. But only you can take yourself there.

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DavidB
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by DavidB » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:17 am

Oh, Good, I am glad to know you did not 'buy the dogma' so to speak. And that you mentioned the concept of "no self" and "self annihilation" made for a very nice way for us to all speak our minds about said subject. :D
I'm glad to have been of assistance. :)

Yeah, I love talking about these concepts but I certainly don't subscribe to them. I don't subscribe to any concept at all as a matter of fact, I see them as only sign posts, or pointers, as Eckhart would say.
Last edited by DavidB on Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

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smiileyjen101
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:14 am

Like a joyful, disorderly, rambunctious Equanimity
YUM!!
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

arel
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by arel » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:37 am

What Am I - What Are You?
We can attempt to describe...
We see things, but we rarely notice the space that contains them. We hear things but don't notice the silence where they arise and disappear to. We have feelings, we taste and smell things, but rarely notice the Knowing that knows or contains them. We have thoughts of past and future but rarely notice the here and now where they happen. So those are my descriptors of what I am.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

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ashley72
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by ashley72 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:25 pm

arel wrote:
What Am I - What Are You?
We can attempt to describe...
We see things, but we rarely notice the space that contains them. We hear things but don't notice the silence where they arise and disappear to. We have feelings, we taste and smell things, but rarely notice the Knowing that knows or contains them. We have thoughts of past and future but rarely notice the here and now where they happen. So those are my descriptors of what I am.

Nicely, said. Do others notice the 180 degree (opposite) perspective of each of those pointers?

How about this..

There are two kinds of suffering. There is the suffering you run away from, which follows you everywhere. And there is suffering you face directly,and in doing so become free. :D

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DavidB
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by DavidB » Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:28 pm

Ashley, have you ever heard of the headless way?

http://www.headless.org/

Your focus on 180 degree turn reminded me of it.
“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.” ― Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

johahr
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by johahr » Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:14 pm

I am still interested in the question regarding one or multiple awarenesses. :) Can we go at it again?

So, I have some what lost my identification with ego, more and more feel that my essence is awareness. That what makes everything real.

Certainly this awareness is somehow connected to my body, since "I" get so much input from senses and mind.

What would indicate that awareness is not a phenomena induced by the brain, thus individual?

Ananda says that it is impossible since a subject cannot contain another subject, but how would that be a contradiction, the existence of multiple awarenesses?

Clearly a subject can recognize the existance of another subject?

Ananda also says the answer is self-evident. I clearly experience the self-evidence of awareness, but how could it be self-evident that awareness is not a brain-phenomena?

arel
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by arel » Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:24 pm

johahr wrote:What would indicate that awareness is not a phenomena induced by the brain, thus individual?
What indicates that it is? The brain. Would you agree or not?
So what would indicate that "the brain" is not a phenomena induced by the brain, thus individual?
johahr wrote:Clearly a subject can recognize the existance of another subject?
What do you mean by that? Like two people talking for example?
I recognize that the subject that I am is without a doubt the same subject that I'm talking to right now, directing this post to. I'm talking to myself basically. So it's not "clearly" as it seems to you.
What I say is only my viewpoint.

johahr
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by johahr » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:29 pm

arel wrote:
johahr wrote:What would indicate that awareness is not a phenomena induced by the brain, thus individual?
What indicates that it is? The brain. Would you agree or not?
So what would indicate that "the brain" is not a phenomena induced by the brain, thus individual?
johahr wrote:Clearly a subject can recognize the existance of another subject?
What do you mean by that? Like two people talking for example?
I recognize that the subject that I am is without a doubt the same subject that I'm talking to right now, directing this post to. I'm talking to myself basically. So it's not "clearly" as it seems to you.
Well, every evidence of awareness appears tightly associated to a brain, so the suggestion that the brain also induces awareness is not far fetched? That for example that a thought is induced in the brain as a subject/object pair would be a working theory...?

A subject can recognize another subject, there is no contradiction in that I mean?

Lets look at two scenarios,

1. The brain induces awareness.
2. The brain is "connected" to, or reflects awareness.

What would indicates any of these two?

Self-evidence, and "two subjects cannot co-exist" has been suggested by Ananda, but I don't see how that whould indicate any of the two?
Last edited by johahr on Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

johahr
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by johahr » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:33 pm

johahr wrote:
...

Self-evidence, and "two subjects cannot co-exist" has been suggested by Ananda, but I don't see how that whould indicate any of the two?
I mean I don't see how it would be self-evident, or why two subject could not co-exist.

johahr
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by johahr » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:43 pm

arel wrote: So what would indicate that "the brain" is not a phenomena induced by the brain, thus individual?
I do not understand what you mean with "the brain", is it something else than the actual brain?

The brain, and our body, obviously exists in multiples.

arel
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by arel » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:51 pm

johahr wrote:
arel wrote: So what would indicate that "the brain" is not a phenomena induced by the brain, thus individual?
I do not understand what you mean with "the brain", is it something else than the actual brain?

The brain, and our body, obviously exists in multiples.
This was my poor attempt at suggesting that the brain/mind is how the concept that "awareness is generated by the brain" is created and maintained. You heard or read that somewhere didn't you? After somebody looked and analyzed and measured and theorized. This might seem irrelevant, but play along and imagine how the world might look through a cat's eyes for example. Can you? The world might look very different, right? In that seeing as you imagine, what is the same between human and cat's perception? How about a bat, that only uses sonar apparently? How would you study "the brain" or anything else if we as humans only had the perception through a sonar sense? What knows of the bats sonar sense? Is it the same that knows of human perception? Science is the study of human perception, which is limited to certain rules. The concept of "brain" is one of them. There is however something that knows of it, and without it, "brain", or anything else is not possible. But without the concept of brain, "it" still exists. Check in your own experience.... By removing every sense of perception, what is left?
What I say is only my viewpoint.

johahr
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Re: What Am I - What Are You?

Post by johahr » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:32 pm

arel wrote:
johahr wrote:
arel wrote: So what would indicate that "the brain" is not a phenomena induced by the brain, thus individual?
I do not understand what you mean with "the brain", is it something else than the actual brain?

The brain, and our body, obviously exists in multiples.
This was my poor attempt at suggesting that the brain/mind is how the concept that "awareness is generated by the brain" is created and maintained. You heard or read that somewhere didn't you? After somebody looked and analyzed and measured and theorized. This might seem irrelevant, but play along and imagine how the world might look through a cat's eyes for example. Can you? The world might look very different, right? In that seeing as you imagine, what is the same between human and cat's perception? How about a bat, that only uses sonar apparently? How would you study "the brain" or anything else if we as humans only had the perception through a sonar sense? What knows of the bats sonar sense? Is it the same that knows of human perception? Science is the study of human perception, which is limited to certain rules. The concept of "brain" is one of them. There is however something that knows of it, and without it, "brain", or anything else is not possible. But without the concept of brain, "it" still exists. Check in your own experience.... By removing every sense of perception, what is left?
Yes naturally the concept, or idea, that the brain generates awareness, is an idea generated by my brain.

That is the beauty of the human brain, that it has the capability to create ideas. Perhaps bats and cats brains cannot do this. And perhaps their brains can generate awareness...

One very important idea my brain came up with was when it noticed that mind can be separated from the subject. That was an important idea that changed my daily life.

Now my brain is continuing on the same path, trying to figure out if this awareness that is apparent, if it unique or shared by other brains...

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