Nonviolence absolute?

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:29 am

I'm glad that we agree Karmarider : )

I'm sorry that I missed your point that love does not preclude violence.
Maybe it's like anger - natural and distorted? Different if it is fuelled by love or fear / consciousness or unconsciousness?

If we don't seek to make an enemy, obstacle or means to an end to a thing/person, it is unlikely that we would use violence through fear when it would manifest as retribution or revenge, or taking offence beyond the moment.
Conscious anger says 'No thank you".

Hopefully we can be conscious of which it is in the moment.

If as in the Little Soul and the Sun story, we thank the angels that have come to help us to remember who we really are, it is far easier to remain conscious. I know the two attackers I mentioned earlier and I will have a hoot back in the light that in those instants, at least I remembered who they/I really were, and how grateful I was and how filled with love for them I was when they too - instantly - remembered who I was too and my love for them, and their love for me, even though one was a total stranger to my human knowledge.

Similarly the little souls that haven't remembered and whom I forgot, on either side of violence, will rejoice in those moments when our light shone brightly with the opportunity.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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enigma
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by enigma » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:58 am

The little soul and the sun story is a story; a parable of sorts.

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:14 am

The little soul and the sun story is a story; a parable of sorts.
I know this, but I love it! Parables and stories can be wonderful wake up calls!

How does it resonate for you enigma?

For me, it is the most beautifully crafted expression of the being I was/am and the all in the light. I particularly love that unlike some other stories about our soul/light expression, that it doesn't say that every detail of our lives is mapped out and agreed to, that wasn't how I experienced it at all. It was very much more as when the friendly soul replied to Little Soul's query 'but how will you help me to be forgiveness?' the friendly soul said "Oh, we'll think of something."

That implies that there are two free to choose if and when any opportunity presents itself.
And opportunities present themself all the time, we just have to notice them!

For me, this resonates on such a vibration of love and the acceptance that only this moment IS, and that we have the freedom and the responsibility for our responses to it. Whereas some others that try to explain it, I feel, can tend to lean to the side that no matter what we choose a thing WILL happen. For me that ignores both our free will and our personal responsibility and the free will and personal responsibility of others that all have the opportunity to choose. If as I experienced in the light, everything is NOW and in every moment every soul can respond as they choose, no thing can be set in stone.

... KR... I have been pondering your statement more since I replied above. Can you explain for me how/why you think my examples agree that love does not preclude violence?

Just in case I gave you the wrong idea that I enacted violence on my would be attackers - given say Wiki's definition of violence
Violence is the expression of physical or verbal force against one or more people, compelling action against one's will on pain of being hurt. ...


I'm not even sure that my actions qualify as violence. I didn't hurt or cause pain to either of them, not physically, mentally or emotionally unless they mentally and emotionally chose to judge it so. The first I broke his fall with my own body (supporting him with shoulder & leg) as he lunged at me, and my hand was on the top of his arm to ease him to the ground and was able to slide up his arm to his hand to be holding it to lift him straight back up again.

I feel more I saved him from pain by not letting him stab me - if that can make any sense. The consequences might have been far more painful for him. Although, he may not have been in total agreement with it at the time, what I meant to show by telling that was I resisted his attempt at violence, but without it escalating to revenge or any more action on my part than was required to disarm him.

The second I merely held and removed his hand from inside my handbag where it was holding my purse poised to lift it out when I stepped off a bus, and put myself in a position of defending myself from possibility of further abuse, but without harming him at all.

In neither of those situations have I ever considered what I would have done if what I did had not been effective in defence, to remove the threat of their violence. That moment never arrived. I never had to make that choice. And, I am grateful for that, someone might have got hurt!
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

ahmedk
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by ahmedk » Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:14 pm

Thanks for all the replies. I saw two the other day and now there are over 30 replies. :shock:

Anyway, KR's post on Amin has convinced me (although that wasn't his intent) that surrendering one's life to these barbarians would be much better than living in a sick world like this.

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Rick
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by Rick » Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:51 pm

I read this thread a while back with interest. The question was "is nonviolence absolute?" The question was asked if you had the chance to kill Hitler to stop his reign of destruction and save millions of lives would you? Both sides of the issue were explored.

For those of you with a subscription to Tolle TV there is an interesting discussion between Tolle and Marianne of "A Course in Miracles" that speaks about the issues of judgement and discernment or, rather the difference between judging and "the description of a person or event". The conversation touches on the existence of evil, Hitler Germany and the need to deal with issues with force if necessary, but not with the energy of anger, but with the energy that comes out of non-judgement and stillness. If you are a subscriber to Tolle TV it is up this month and is well worth viewing.
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:01 am

For those of you with a subscription to Tolle TV there is an interesting discussion between Tolle and Marianne of "A Course in Miracles" that speaks about the issues of judgement and discernment or, rather the difference between judging and "the description of a person or event". The conversation touches on the existence of evil, Hitler Germany and the need to deal with issues with force if necessary, but not with the energy of anger, but with the energy that comes out of non-judgement and stillness.
For those of us who aren't subscribers, would you care to 'review' it for us rick?
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
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Rick
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by Rick » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:23 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:
For those of you with a subscription to Tolle TV there is an interesting discussion between Tolle and Marianne of "A Course in Miracles" that speaks about the issues of judgement and discernment or, rather the difference between judging and "the description of a person or event". The conversation touches on the existence of evil, Hitler Germany and the need to deal with issues with force if necessary, but not with the energy of anger, but with the energy that comes out of non-judgement and stillness.
For those of us who aren't subscribers, would you care to 'review' it for us rick?
Hi Jen,

Sure thing. Here it is condensed, distilled and edited down a bit.

The Question: "Is “good or bad” an illusion created by the mind?"

ET: The present moment is as it is. Judgement is the rejection of the isness of what is - A deeper knowing tells you what is needed in the situation, which can result in action or simple acceptance depending upon what it is. Judgement means arguing with the form life takes at this moment. It might be a challenge, it might require action but not from anger, but from a deep knowing of what is required and is not based in judgement. There is a looking, a seeing and then action.

Marianne: Our first job is to go into emptiness which allows Spirit to guide perception. You might be shown that all that is required is that the person is to be accepted as they are. Sometimes, as Eckhart said, action is called for. Was it OK for the Jews to be carted off to Auschwitz? No, I don't think so! Would the spiritual seeker say "its not right, its not wrong" as if that were the end of the story? I appreciated that Franklin Roosevelt called the Nazis 'unworthy men" instead of "evil doers". It was simply something that had to be handled. There is a difference between right minded and wrong minded. There is evil in the world. People can become temporarily inaccessible to the power of atonement. Nonjudgement yes! But there is a place for the spiritual seeker to be very, very discerning. The fact that I don't judge you doesn't mean that as a serial rapist you can go home and sip tea. At this place in your life you are a threat to others and stopping you is not a negative act. (looking toward ET) Do you agree?

ET: Yes, and the recognition of such deep unconsciousness is not a judgement.
Last edited by Rick on Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:39 am

Thanks rick... ( not coincidence) - I was playing more "word fun" this morning and one I didn't list in the other thread was -

non-judgementally discerning ~ discerningly non-judgemental

and it does take 'presence' to discern this :wink:

...edit after seeing this and thinking how well it fits here too -
Sighclone said:

Eckhart has a subscription tv service and sends out these little gems, like this, his latest:
The greatest service is to recognize the essence or the reality of the other person. Everything else passes away, is transitory, but that recognition of the other as God and one with who you are, to see that, that is the greatest service you can give—the realization of who that person truly is beyond the form.
Andy
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

snowheight
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by snowheight » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:04 am

ok 'Jen ... how's this for some necessary violence: I'm going to astrally project back into your father when you were 9 and give you a spanking for taking the risk of hitchhiking to the Caves those years later ... and then to prove I'm not a coward who just hits women I'll go challenge Jason to a fist-fight to teach him some humility.
Stop talking. Hear every sound as background. Look straight ahead and focus. Take one deep breath. This is you. This is Now.

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smiileyjen101
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by smiileyjen101 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:17 am

ok 'Jen ... how's this for some necessary violence: I'm going to astrally project back into your father when you were 9 and give you a spanking for taking the risk of hitchhiking to the Caves those years later ... and then to prove I'm not a coward who just hits women I'll go challenge Jason to a fist-fight to teach him some humility.
oohhhh,,,, thaaat's what that spanking was for?? :shock:

Actually I have an immense amount of compassion (and respect) for my parents in 'allowing' and for the most part, even if they held their breath at times supporting me or at least believing in me. (the notion of I don't worry about you, I believe in you, is incredibly powerful in assigning response-ability where it most belongs)

.. but it's okay the mother's curse works...

"One day you'll have a child just like you!!"

Watching my girls live in the moment was good-medicine (karma) - didn't stop me 'being' with them or believing in them, but did give me a wider appreciation.
Our rights start deep within our humanity; they end where another's begin~~ SmileyJen
http://www.balancinginfluences.com

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Rick
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by Rick » Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:25 am

smiileyjen101 wrote:Thanks rick... ( not coincidence) - I was playing more "word fun" this morning and one I didn't list in the other thread was -

non-judgementally discerning ~ discerningly non-judgemental

and it does take 'presence' to discern this :wink:
My pleasure.
Daily life IS spiritual exercise.

turnitaround12
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by turnitaround12 » Sun May 13, 2012 7:03 am

Smiily wrote this below:

"
Those that crucified Jesus Christ in fear - chose to do so. Those who judge and act in fear choose - consciously or unconsciously - to do so."
There is no such thing as "choosing unconsciously." That is an oxymoron. There is no choosing when one is not conscious; e.g., "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."

Read Bonhoeffer. It is a true story about a devout German Lutheran Pastor who agonized over participating in a plot to assasinate Hitler. He did participate in planning it and the plot failed and he was imprisoned and executed. There is also a film about him that is incredibly moving.

http://thetrailersbay.com/movie/5118/Bonhoeffer/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer

http://www.amazon.com/Bonhoeffer-Pastor ... 1595551387

Also, regarding Gandhi - he did not support the British in their efforts against Hitler. In fact, Gandhi would have let the slaughtering of Jews and others to continue on because of his unrealistic pacifist beliefs.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2008/ ... ndthejews/



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi
Last edited by turnitaround12 on Sun May 13, 2012 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

turnitaround12
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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by turnitaround12 » Sun May 13, 2012 7:49 am

SmiileyJen wrote:
I would have not. (Killed the dictators mentioned by other poster) To deem I had that right over the life of another or others would be the same wrong thinking as they employed.

Neither would I have chosen to obey them had they ordered me to kill another.

I am only responsible for the choices I make.

We are all only responsible for the choices we make, and no one else is responsible for them.

In PON Tolle speaks about the group pain bodies that react, there is enough evidence of people abdicating their personal responsibility in reaction to the group pain body, urged on by fear, by ego, by thinking one is greater than another.

We are all one, even the Hitlers of this world are part of us all. It just depends how we choose to react.
Psychopaths take great joy in harming and torturing others. It is almost impossible for the average person to comprehend this. Fear is your friend when it comes to these people. They are NOT responsible for their behavior (which does not mean they should not be locked up to protect others) because they are not only psychologically and spiritually unconscious, they are physiologically damaged. They cannot make conscious choices like you and I make. See an interesting article on violence here by Sam Harris http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the- ... t-violence

When one is in a horriffic situation like those in the concentration camps, as you said in a later post, you cannot predict what you will do. You might kill someone else if ordered to do so. People did things in these circumstances that they never thought they would do under ordinary conditions.

If someone had a gun pointed at your child's head - would you not kill that person before he killed your child?

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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by rideforever » Sun May 13, 2012 8:48 am

A supernova might destroy a thousand planets in a blink of an eye.

If we live in reality then 'violence' is a part of it. Is it 'violence' or just dramatic change ?

The violence that spiritual teachings talk of avoiding is only the violence of the identification with the mind. JK says "no thought is innocent". If you become unidentified then you will act naturally. It is no longer 'violence' because it is just reality.

If someone attacks you and you do nothing ... for most people it is just out of fear / cowardice ... a kind of mental conditioning - with the rationalisation that "I am above you because I will not act". i.e. it is a load of BS conditioning. Nothing more.

Ghandi and other ascetics preached the path of asceticism. Like ET says, yes it has a small chance of working, but many monks hiding in the mountains spend the whole time dreaming of women ... for most it is not honest, and just represents a fear of life.

Religions preach sexual restraint because when you take away pleasure from people they become easy to control - they are so unhappy and desperate. This is why ideas of self-restraint have been popularised by the state and church over the years ... how can you 'be in charge' unless people are unhappy.

Trungpa also says something like : 'compassion is not so much being kind, but being creative to wake somebody up'.

Self-discipline can be useful to provide stability at the beginning of the path, however to move into reality you need to remove the conditioning of self-discipline at some point. Also know as : shamatha / vipassana.
I was proud, and I demanded the finest teacher
.. .. and when he appeared
.. .. .. .. I was so small

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Re: Nonviolence absolute?

Post by HermitLoon » Sun May 13, 2012 8:25 pm

The way this "Script/Story" called "Physical Life" seems to go is that all living "things" seem to dance to the tune of the survival instinct. All do this by using physical force - at its most extreme "Violence".
In that vein, is there an essential difference between a tree that invades a lawn and takes away its water and nutrients and sun light, thereby killing it, and Hitler? or a mass murderer? or someone who over-consumes, thereby depriving someone else of the earth's resources?
The "Script" calls for survival and violence - so be it.
Even as "He" observes "his" mind/body react to instinct and conditioning (the "script"), HermitLoon does not mind what happens - or what "has happened" - or what "might happen".
Peace

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